I thought that a handler hard dog is a dog that can take a correction well, not a rank dog. A hard dog is not just limited to corrections but it also includes being able to take all stressful situations well.
Handler sensitive dogs don't often make good working dogs because they need the owner close by in order to feel strong. You can't have an SAR dog be afraid to follow a scent comb if the owner is not close by.
This was my understanding of these terms.
Todd, what do you do when your dogs show rank behaviors toward you and what do you consider a rank behavior? I'm starting to see my 8 month czech pup starting to get pushy and I'm wondering if he's starting to get some rank drive. I always thought that rank problems could be kept in check as long as at least basic obedience is continued throughout the dogs life. But after reading the agreement you have with your dog about keeping your face, this doesn't seem to be the case.

workinggsd,
There were some links given at the beginning of this thread to Ed Frawley's definitions of these terms. I went back and re-read them, and think I understand it all now (at least until tomorrow... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> )

http://www.leerburg.com/pupqa.htm#sharp

 Quote:

Todd, what do you do when your dogs show rank behaviors toward you and what do you consider a rank behavior?

For most of my dogs it has been taken care of before it was ever an issue. With Mara, maybe one day I will clear the rank completely, but for now I just do it every six months. It is real simple I tell my dog to do something. They either do it or get corrected for it. For instance, every once in a while Mara does not want to go into a kennel. (She lives in a 60x40 yard) However, sometimes a crate is necessary. Anyway, I say kennel. It is a training word I have used with her ever since I got her she understands it. Sometimes she puts her head in and stops. Just stands there. Let's just say I gently escort her into the kennel. Did that yesterday as a matter of fact. Today I said kennel she walked right in. Is that a challenge? Maybe a small one. Do I worry about it? Nope. Now, she does try to bite me every once in a while. Is that a challenge? Hell, yes! Do I fix it. Yes. Each dog is different in how it is dealt with. You also have to know your dogs. For instance, Mara is never off leash. I always maintain control. If I have the leash it is a hell of alot easier to administer a proper correction than a dog running free. Some people just don't get that though. ie. How do I correct my dog who is running in the back yard runs up bites my leg and takes off? You shoot it and get another.(KIDDING)

The best advice I have. YOU HAVE TO KNOW YOUR DOGS!!! The only way that is going to happen. Interaction. Playing with them. Being with them. Not putting them in a crate and forgeting about them.

Now, switching subjects. It seems this thread has gone round in circles about 3 times and is still open. Another thread I was just getting into a little bit of controversy and it is closed? A little quick on the trigger if you ask me. But, then again, who asked me? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Hey Todd, Continue to educate the needy!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Thread still open, continue on bro. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Todd said "You have to know your dogs".
I can give my three terriers a leash correction so hard they will do a back flip without loosing focus on whatever they are watching. They are hard dogs. The two borders can be crushed with a harsh word. They are handler soft dogs. The JRT can be pushed into a snapping,snarling, little monster. In his case it is not rank, just a edgy, weak nerved dog that could easily be a fear biter with someone he doesn't know/trust.

Todd wrote:

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Now, switching subjects. It seems this thread has gone round in circles about 3 times and is still open. Another thread I was just getting into a little bit of controversy and it is closed? A little quick on the trigger if you ask me. But, then again, who asked me

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Glad to see I'm not the only one that noticed this. Keep those controversial threads
open, there're the lifeblood of the forum IMHO.

John

Todd,

Check your P.M.'s

In my opinion the thread mentioned wasn't going anywhere. There is a problem, usually we are at least talking with the handler/owner of a specific dog and more information can be taken from the person to provide a clearer picture. And with so many minds together we often get a good discussion going and can provide a few different perspectives. I don't think that thread was gonna do that.

It might have been fun to see Richy and Miky fight like two little old women, but even that reached it's end. Once you say the same shiznit the same few times, then who wants to hear it again?

Todd may have had some other perspectives on the situation, but tough noogies. . .

Open another thread, don't whine about it.

Lets keep the hot and heavy discussions to at least threads where we can get more info from someone that knows the dog first hand. That was stupid.

TODD,
Awsome analogys LOL <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> I think the guru's have spoken LOL <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> All I can say is read Ed's threads on sharpness,nerves etc. and as far as grouping all Check lines together DUH! :rolleyes: Some people need to talk when they feel inferior or they are jealous of anothers dogs ability take it all with a grain of salt. You do what you want with your dog and blow the others off!Keep training and have fun! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
Only my opinion! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Lewis and Argo

 Quote:

Originally posted by Dogma:
Sooo....could you have a "hard" dog (resilient towards unpleasant experiences: one that springs back from a correction without a grudge or loss of drive)

AND a "handler sensitive" dog (one that has a strong pack drive: wants to work for the handler, so will respond to corrections in a positive manner)

....all in one animal?

A handler sensitive dog by common defination is normally not a dog that is hard in temperment. This is not normally a dog that needs alot of hard corrections to make a point.

With this type of dog if you corrected it at the same level that one would correct a "hard tempermented" dog the sensitive dog would more then likley go into avoidence.

With that said, it does not mean the the sensitive dog will not do respectable protection work. The two behavoirs do not always go hand in hand.