**The ZW is a concern to me though, If that number is correct.**

The numbers are correct, they are out of the latest SV ZW CD.

I don´t know if brawnson is a good stud or not but it´s important to know that the dogs winning big competitions are not only winning because of their superior genes, they have very skilled trainers that also is a big part of the success, therefore we shouldn´t overvalue a dog just because he is winning trials, as a breedingdog the dog placing not so high could be equaly good or better, the trainer has a lot of influence which dog places 1st or 15th.

What is needed for the development of workingdogs is test that test the genetic drives of the offspring a certain stud produce, so breeders know if this is a good stud. In this area there is still much to do in many countries, I think we have a good system in the nordic countries where organized test are available for dogs between 12-18 months on the workingdogsclub. These test gives you a quick and good view over what a stud produce without timeconsuming workingdog trails where maybe only a few of the offspring are entered, even if trails also are important. For a breedingdog I think a selectiontest done by a experinced k9-officer says more about a dogs character than a sporttitle, you see to many titled dogs that are not so impressive in such test. I don´t know how it´s is in the U.S, but many breedingdogs of mals and GSDs here in sweden have besides sporttitles also been tested in mentaltests on the workingdogs-clubs or works as servicedogs and then you can see a description of their drives and nerves in a written description done by a special person trained in testing dogs for service. In such description you get more info about the dog that you never see on a trailfield.

Good post Stig, I have been stressing this topic on another thread. There needs to be more tests like, what you are talking about. I think it would be more accurate in choosing good breeding dogs than some sport. Sorry to all of you sport people out there. :rolleyes:

By the way Stig, do you have any links to the tests that you mentioned? I beleive that I already have them but I want to make sure.

 Quote:

Originally posted by Bobby:
Mike, unless your younge dogs are out of Brawnson they are not relevant to this thread. So your comments need to be filed under "AND YOUR POINT IS?"

The dogs I have seen from Brawnson were mature dogs. They were dogs that were being shown for a title. They were club dogs - they had no drive.

I have personally seen Brawnson in the last two USA National police dog championships. Have you?

The same thing goes for Michael Talyor Rivers - we are not talking about fight drive in puppies. Maybe you are just being a wise guy. What part of this are you missing? Have you ever seen Broawnson compete? Have you ever seen one of Brawnsons dogs compete in a trial? When you have you will be qualified to voice your opinions on this dog. In the meantime you are blowing hot air on something you don't have a clue about.

I never claimed to have seen this dog, or his offspring in person. Your ignorance in thinking you are qualified in judging a dog (as a stud) just from seeing him work, and seeing a few of his offspring shows that you really are not as knowlegeable as you think.

Brawnson may very well be a shit producer, however, from what has been posted, there is no conclusive evidence that he is either way.

I never mentioned pups. Common-sense would dictate this. But from what you are posting, someone that is less knowledgeable about dogs then yourself, might believe it, which you have no hard proof, other then that you have seen a few of his offspring work, and a few of his pups. Do you have anything else to support your claim? While I am sure a person can judge a dogs character from watching him work, there is no way you can judge the offspring until you have seen alot more then a few........

Van Camp is pretty much on the money with his last post, so I won't go there. I suggest that you do though.

And yeah I am from New York ,so I am a wise-guy <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I like <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> wise-guys///smartass// Kampsters//and I'm the dumb ass but I'm learning!!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Michael Rivers Taylor: VERY GOOD POST!!!

I may breed my female to a Brawnson son, if she's good enough!! I know wherte a good son of Brawnson lives. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

If I stepped on anyones toes or hurt any feelings with my post on this topic, I'M SORRY. That was not the intent of my post!!

I'm just trying to understand. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I want to tell everyone on this board _ DO NOT SWEAR ON MY BOARD !!! This is an open forum - young people have access to it. I use less than acceptable language, anyone who knows me knows that - but NOT ON THIS BOARD !! If I have to tell someone more than once I will block them from posting.

 Quote:

Originally posted by Ed Frawley:
I want to tell everyone on this board _ DO NOT SWEAR ON MY BOARD !!! This is an open forum - young people have access to it. I use less than acceptable language, anyone who knows me knows that - but NOT ON THIS BOARD !! If I have to tell someone more than once I will block them from posting.

sorry Ed, got a little carried away. I'll keep it more in check next time <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Thanks Mike - the future of our dog sports is not us - its the younge people who come into the sport. I don't see enough young people in Schutzhund - I do not want to push young people away from my site because of our language.

 Quote:

Originally posted by Crabtree:
I may breed my female to a Brawnson son, if she's good enough!! I know wherte a good son of Brawnson lives.

would this be the same Brawnson son that did a good job tonite? Did very good out of the box, even got a few compliments (from people who his owner trust their judgements). Also got a few tips to make him better (one being, separate him from his playpal from now on). <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />