Plenty of people have turned down nice pups then.

But, honestly the average joe searching for a breeder has to look at a few things. Unless they know Todd and have some people they trust who can give them some advice about the dogs, them not having a title would influence a buyer. As well it should, if I never in my life see Ernst vom Weinbergblick in the flesh. . .I have to assume he has working ability based on his standardized Schutzhund titles and performances at big events. Thats just a fact of logistics and trusting in the Schutzhund system. (not that I do trust it, but when its all you have to go on. . .often times one must) None of that though has anything to do with him being a good breeding dog.

If the same buyer had a chance to see my Mara daughter in the blind. . .I don't think the question of title, or lack there of, would enter their mind.

They might change their mind after seeing how she deals with other females of her race, or how she tried to mount me the first week I owned her. . .and then tried, in a very serious way, to bite off my left manboob when I threw her to the ground. (all from an 8 month old bitchling)

These dogs aren't for everyone. . .but the fact that Mara has no title doesn't bother me.


I'm circling the bowl here. . .my point is that titles are important, but certainly not the sole criteria a breeding dog should be judged on. An untitled dog here or there in a breeding program doesn't mean dicky. It certainly WOULD mean something if every dog in a program didn't have a title. . .that would be a very very bad thing. But thats not what we are talking about, we are talking about some females and the occasional male in a bloodline of proven working stock surrounded by dogs with titles right?


I still don't understand this argument, especially from Mike Williams. . .who bred an untitled dog himself. Whats the BFD?

I find this argument pretty worthless for a number of reasons. Firstly the best "working dog" programs in the world are the KNPV and the NVBK. 90% of females used for breedings in these programs are untitled. This group of "lazy, money hungry people with bitches that can't work" continue to breed far better quality working dogs than all those show GSD breeders in Germany who all go through the pain and effort of SchH titling and Koering all those excellent examples of working character females. Not!. So by using your logic Mike, these show GSD females are more suitable than those KNPV lined Mal bitches?
Titles mean sweet stuff all.
Your happy to use an untitled male that couldn't get titled after many years and lots of $??? But you wouldn't breed to a female that was untitled?
That logic is all a bit odd.

I believe some of you are taking things a little out of context. I am NOT saying there is no such thing as an excellent untitled female/male. I am also NOT saying all titled females/males are worth breeding. I'm just saying that requiring a SchH1 and koerung to breed will weed out a lot of substandard females/males. The good ones will pass, the bad will fail. Also, will you spend all that training time on a substandard dog in hopes they pass so you can breed..no. You will take a dog that looks very promising and continue on. Yes some very good dogs like Fivel may not be able to breed, but I believe as a whole, that is not a big deal to lose one dog. There are always good dogs out there. We shouldn't be worried about breeders on this board, what we need to address are some of the breeders in the local paper. Every get a chance to own an ultra rare white german shepherd? Do you think these breeders will put in the time for a SchH title? The reason this is an argument is there is not a set in stone rule like in Germany. Over there, like it or not, these are the rules, you will follow them, or you will not breed. Period. No interpretation. It will never happen that way over here which make this argument moot and so aggrevating to all of us. The way it is now, as long as you breed a german shepherd to a german shepherd and get a german shepherd then all is OK.

Except that in many breeds losing one good dog is significant. True working GSDs are one. I will grant they are easier to find than a good working BRT, but they are still not very common in the general population of the GSD in general. It is probably even desireable for a breeder to find, test, and breed dogs that have the proper working qualities than to get an arbitrary title. If a breeder has many dogs it is going to be very time consuming to title all of them. Then comes the question of why only title them to a SchH I, why not take all of them to a 3?

Another point is that SchH is only ONE of many tests of working ability, and not necessarily the best. It was designed as a basic test for breed suitability. In other words a single step along the way for identifying suitable dogs of a specific type. The reason that SchH holds the sway that it currently does is the PRICE of dogs, and pups that come from dogs, that do well.

Rather than arguing about what constitutes an acceptable title to establish an artificial breeding suitability test, we would be better served in trying to stimulate more interest in the proper types of dogs, and encouraging participation in any test that move breeds back towards their intended purpose. I think it is much more important discussion in a crowd like this would be the selection of puppy buyers, than selection of breeding pairs.

But Jeff, the theory doesn't add up. The requirements of breeding show GSD in Germany IS a SchH title and a Koer. Has this improved them? No. Has this weeded out the bad ones? No. You can train all but the weakest dogs to a SchH1. Is this a strong test for a dog? No. Are the untitled bitches in the KNPV better in character than the titles show GSD's? Yes.
At the end of the day if you are a half a working person you should know how good dog is by training and testing it. Putting a title on her isn't going to improve her genetics or what she produces in the welping box.

Originally posted by chris jones:
But Jeff, the theory doesn't add up. The requirements of breeding show GSD in Germany IS a SchH title and a Koer. Has this improved them? No. Has this weeded out the bad ones? No. You can train all but the weakest dogs to a SchH1. Is this a strong test for a dog? No. Are the untitled bitches in the KNPV better in character than the titles show GSD's? Yes.
At the end of the day if you are a half a working person you should know how good dog is by training and testing it. Putting a title on her isn't going to improve her genetics or what she produces in the welping box. I don't want to debate either side here (because I think I'm pretty much in the middle), but is the Sch test in Germany to make the breed better or is it really to just prevent indiscriminate showline breeders from utterly ruining the breed in a quest for conformation fads? I would contend that it has done the latter, but not the former.

The only thing that will make a breed better are good breeders working with enough good dogs to build good genetic foundations. The Sch title doesn't give you that good genetic foundation, but it does ensure that in most cases indiscriminate breeders can't get the really poor examples of their breeding through the Sch test. Obviously, the SV could improve this more, but it's functioned better than most other systems over that amount of time.

The way I see it is that I would not buy a pup from untitled parents in Germany, but would consider it in the US (with the right pedigree and having seen the untitled parents work). There are few excuses for not titling a dog in Germany with their huge number of trials and clubs, where in the US it can be very difficult to title your dog if you're in a bad geographic area with little access to clubs and trials. That in a nutshell is why I think such a restriction in the US would be impractical.

Jeff has said "I'm just saying that requiring a SchH1 and koerung to breed will weed out a lot of substandard females/males. The good ones will pass, the bad will fail. "


Try a Sch3 female, KKL1 that in a protection routine would bolt out of the blind, would not approach people, etc. She RAN from the helper and she was a Sch3. So how did that make her better than my Sch1 or untitled female that will stay in the blind all day long and not run out of fear?

Excellent points from Chris and especially Richard.

Chris, you make some intersting statements but in a sense you are comparing apples and oranges with the KNPV and SchH. KNPV does not have any entry level titles similar to the SchH1. Either the dog has to spend several years in training to get the PH1, or they are "untitled." In my experience, the breeders I have asked will work their females to see what they are like, so it is very possible that the females are trained to a level similar to a SchH1 before breeding.

Another aspect is the size of Holland. Someone living over there can go see a female work before they decide on a puppy. I could be looking at spending $500 (airfare, motel, car, etc.) just to go see one untitled female worked, and I might end up not liking what I see. While SchH titles are not perfect, they allow me to know that there is at least some minimum standard the dog has passed before I pay a lot of money to go have a look. With the cost of pups in America vs. Holland, it would be much cheaper to go over there and see two untitled parents and come back with a pup than see two untitled parents in America unless they were both in the same area and it was relatively close to me. I just wanted to point out a few reasons why using the KNPV program as an example to justify breeding untitled dogs isn't the best example.

Angela,

Thanks for the input. That is what I am talking about. If you go out and show your dog the weakness will show-up. So the dog made a 3, but one day had enough, how would this show up on a untitled bitch? Just by looking at some breeders links we can see what side of the fence they are on. The comments from one breeder recently about working titles, then I check out web page and see 3 or 4 breedings to titled males with un-titled bitches again. Come on how can you advertise 100% working lines when the foundation of your kennel is not working or titled?

The working Mal, most of us know that a KNPV mal can be anyones guess as to the bloodlines and the true breed behind each dog. They breed to anything from Great Dane to Dutch Shepherd, try getting AKC or any clubs to register an imported KNPV dog. Should we do away with the SV program and introduce other breeds to the Shepherd? Is that what you mean Chris?

Brad