Pertaining to the question as to whether a Schutzhund dog will protect in real life or not.

My question is: If helpers correct dogs for biting anywhere other than the sleeve, or pops the dog for paws on the scratch pants, how then does that affect the dogs ability/perception to bite a "real" bad guy?

While what you say can happen (a guy that is being bit and keeps on walking) most peole are not going to be able to jam a dog without a sleeve. Also unless they have a weapon, if the dog is trained right most guys are going to have the wind taken out of thier sales fairly quickly.

The variables in a real apprehension are vast. Clothing, drugs and alcohol, mental status, physique, even what the bad guy does for a living effect the outcome.
Within law enforcement we encounter people who have incredible pain tolerences and others who have nothing to loose so being bitten is prtetty irrelevent in the face of the alternative....being incarcerated (often when the third strike rule will apply).
To add to the variables are the expereince the dog has in capturing suspects, the quality of the training, not to mention the quality of the dog.
Certainly a very very few dogs seem to have been born with a badge on their chest and the absolute unrelenting desire to hunt and fight it out with the bad guys. But, these are few and far between and don't make up the majority of SchH dogs OR police dogs....even successful ones.

Sorry for getting so off topic Ms. Alaska. That rarely happens here.

It affects it, most dogs in fact. This is why a sports dog has to have some extra training or why many people like to do it. This is what I've been told. Does this help?

Ideally I wouldn't have a true PPDog compete in sport because it would help confuse him. Some people have several dogs, some they compete in sport for fun, and one they have for PP work.

I didn't read all of the replies, but even in Police K-9 training we don't want our dogs to get hurt, we don't want them to get hurt on the road either but one has little control over that.
The helper or (Prey) is the one that has to know what he is doing, for instance never push the sleeve into the dog as he is biting due to neck injuries and never yard on the sleeve so hard that you are standing there with your dogs teeth in it.
I observed a Schutzhund competition this past April, the helper continuously was shoving the sleeve into the dogs on the initial bites, made me cringe every time.

Tim

Originally posted by Michael Talyor Rivers:
I think it was yourself that pointed out in another thread that what the judges look for years ago, they are not looking for today. While the routine is pretty much the same, fighting drive is no longer really something the dog has to display in order to get full points. I did say that before, and I still think that the JUDGES are driving what you see in Schutzhund, just as they do in the conformation ring. Competitors will bring a long-hair, brown and silver, yellow-eyed cryptorchid if that's what the judges will put on the podium! When they reward high prey and perfect grips, that's what breeders breed for and competitors buy. If they started elevating the value of a dog with better nerves, THAT'S what the breeders and handlers would seek. It's all driven by whatever is rewarded, whatever will bring success.

Ok, I see your point; I just meant that I don't have a problem with the format of the test itself. I don't think it's necessary to change the way we test/trial the dogs. You can learn what you need to learn about a dog from the existing program. I do think we need to try to get the judging to swing back the other way - to devalue the "technique" dog who shows iffy nerves.

Brad G that does answer my question,and does confirm my feeling on helper corrections in the sport of Schutzhund vs. affect on a potential protection dog. In essence -- a dog can do a beautiful bark and hold and everything else correct but still may never protect you in a true confrontation, therein lies the split between true protection and the "sport" of Schutzhund.

Thanks, one down and a million to go
Ginger

I'd like to see better judging focus, and perhapse a tougher courage test. I'd also like to see a muzzle test and another fun exercise, like the object guard, to flesh out the protection phase. That's just me I guess.