OK - so let me get this straight?? You all are against conformation people and what they do to the dogs they show in the ring right?? I tell ya - dog people - they've got all the answers. I'm sure the confomation group would have a whole nother story!! It's very frustrating. Well - I am very pleased with my purchase so far - he's a pet and will be neutered so no need to worry about him producing any more "mushy" dobies. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Well - maybe I can at least gain some knowledge on this board about how to train this little guy. I'm still having such a problem though with the thought that these dogs cannot and should not be pets. Isn't that what a dog should ultimately be? Our friend and pal? Or maybe not - I don't know. Maybe they should just be strictly bred to work or fight but be totally untrustworthy with people? I just know that right now we have the best and smartest puppy we've EVER had and we've had lots. We are thrilled and that's all the matters to me. I love this little guy more than words can say. Glad to learn though!

Pauline

Hi Pauline, you wrote:

>Glad to learn though!

Me too. I have 3 rotts and do no protection work, but my dogs do work. And strangely enough, they do the work they were originally inteded for, herding and carting. I have dropped the herding, but still work my dogs in the cart, I sit and drive, they pull. We do about three miles in thirty minutes, in an urban environment. I have competed in "working" venues for both carting, herding, and obedience. But my dogs are primarily pets and housedogs. This board has excellent reviews on training problems for all breeds of dogs, but specialize in working dogs. Some of the members are rather intense, we as pet dog owners can gain a lot from their expertise. Some of the members can be a little "blunt", but I have to say it is because of their love of their chosen breed(s) and dedication to the training of same. Now that I've given all of them a big head, I'll go back to my dog catching!!!!! Pauline, hang in there, you'll get more out of this list if you can just run the gauntlaunt and laugh about it afterwards. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Susan

Opps, correct that spelling to "run the gauntlet." <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

 Quote:

Originally posted by Pauline Heiny:
I'm still having such a problem though with the thought that these dogs cannot and should not be pets. Isn't that what a dog should ultimately be? Our friend and pal? Or maybe not - I don't know. Maybe they should just be strictly bred to work or fight but be totally untrustworthy with people?

This is where the problem lies. Protection dogs ARE safe and trustworthy around people. They are easy to train, and like to work, but show people will tell you how "nasty" of "ugly" those dogs are. Most have ever even seen one, much less trained one, but will tell you how they are bad dogs. My dog is very much my friend, and very much my pal, but he also gets a rise out of biting the bad guy. Do I worry when I have company, no. Do I worry with kids around, no. Protection dogs are not "straight killers" that have no control. Even a protective dog can be taught to stand for the judge in the same manner that the goofy show dogs can, so to use that as an excuse for breeding overgrown couch potatos is lame. I seriously doubt Herr Dobermann cared if his dog would free stack when he developed the breed.

I am not slamming you for what you bought, I just do not agree with breeding dogs that can't do what they are intended to do. Take a look at the husky's in the ring. Not a one has EVER seen a sled, and probably couldn't pull a popsicle. Same with the fat labradors that can't retreive. Poodles can't hunt, yeah, they are supposed to do that! Show dogs are just that, for show.

*gets off her soapbox*

Pauline -- you are in the right place to get lots of tips and information. Like our working dogs, we tend to be pretty straightforward. I hope you don't take it too personally! = )

Susan is a goddess in Rott carting circles. She is a joy to watch and her dogs are as stable as they can be.
We do obedience. Our bitch is steady, attentive and a joy to be around -- as long as you don't come up the driveway! We didn't get her for protection or for SchH. But she has opened our eyes to the possibilites and versitility of our breed.

Thank doG that there are lots of folks whose interests lie in preserving the working qualities of working breeds. And for their willingness to teach newcomers!

Hello All:
I would have to agree with most of the advice that I have heard on this board. Pauline, a good example for you to look at is the american bred (show) german shepherd and one from european working (West German, DDR, Holland, Czech or Belgium) lines. These dogs don't even look like they belong to the same breed. A dog that is a working dog bred from working lines should have good nerves, stable temperaments, be healthy and be stable in social situations. Of course you always have the 10% that aren't. Most working dogs are bonded very closely with their owners, have a good working relationship and are pretty trustworthy. Working owners have better control over their dogs than the average pet owner. People who train in SCH/IPO/Ring/Mondio as well as tracking, usually go to a club and train at least 2 days a week. Then they go home and work the dog a few times a day. It takes a lot of time patience, traveling and money. Also if your other 1/2 isn't as committed to the sport as you are, you're going to spend more than your share of time on the couch and get flack for that too. It takes many years to train a dog to compete in those sports even at the club level, let alone regional or national level. These dogs have to be tested by a strange helper, on a strange field, under gun fire, in some programs, they have to perform guarding of articles with the handler out of sight. If these dogs were vicious monster who only bit indiscriminately they would never be able to compete. In some programs, the dogs have to pass a breed suitability test or have a working title and have a specific rating for hips, elbows, etc before they are even "allowed" to be bred. To get an idea, get a couple of tapes that Ed has produced, KNPV, Mondio, SCH nationals, WPO, etc. Nothing for nothing, some of the dogs are spectacular. Sure you will see bite work, but look at the level of control these handlers have over their dogs. Look at the OB and tracking and think about all the time it takes to get a dog to perform at that level. Getting working dog people and show dog people to view the pros and cons on their dogs is also like the old chevy vs. ford or what came first the chicken or the egg arguments.

Let me ask this question - in working dogs is conformation or the "look" of the dog at all a factor in breeding? For people into actually using them as working dogs that is.

NO. . .not for the people really working them. If you are fighing some a-hole and your dog takes him down in a heep, do you give a hoot what the dog looks like? When you find that kid lost in the woods, or the elderly person that forgot their way home do you think their loved ones give a damn what your dog looked like?

Think about that question for a minute.

For breeders of working dogs, there are factors, depending on who you are and your breeding goal. If you are a good working breeder you don't care what the dog looks like as long as it does not have any structural faults that affect working ability and it generally represents the breed. You know, has hair, legs, a tail, ears and two eyes. . . <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Producing working dogs is difficult enough without living up to a set of style and opinion influenced conformation goals.

The first set of goals in any breeding program of working dogs should be working abilities, temperament, and health. If you can peg those three you are a damn fine breeder. Everything else is hit or miss. . .

Just a general question. If we are not interested in looks (and I am not), and if we are more interested in a dog with a great working temperament and great health, why do we continue to breed GSDs to GSDs, Mals to Mals, Giants to Giants, etc.? Why don't we take the dogs with the best working temperaments of any breed, and breed them together. Mal to GSD, GSD to Rottie, BRT to Bouvier, etc. This was one of the points made in a book sold on this site, the Coppinger book, "Dogs, a Startling New Understanding of ...". Great book. I happen to agree with the author's point. Especially when you consider the health problems associated with any pure breed. I think the hybrid vigor would not be a bad thing for working dogs.