Quote:

Originally posted by Will Rambeau:
Molly nailed that one!
If you do the research, the majority of dogs that are in the top 15 of the SchH USA Nationals most years are dogs that recieved their SchH III overseas, and were then imported to the U.S.

I think maybe there's been a trend away from this. Nine of the top 15 placing dogs at the 2004 USA North American Championship were HOT dogs (handler-owner-trained). So they weren't imported with SchH3 titles.

My husband's "top 15" GSD in USA national level schutzhund events (Artemis v Kiefern Tal, aka "Lodi") is, like Molly's Eagle, home grown (not imported), a house dog, handler-owner trained & raised from a baby pup, and a wonderful companion. Lodi is almost never kenneled.
It sure hasn't hurt this dog's drive to be a house dog. My husband is convinced that for this dog anyway, a closer handler-dog relationship has been formed than could be achieved if the dog was a kennel dog, so being a house dog helps their scores.

I suspect maybe that drive is enhanced by kenneling if the dog doesn't have enough drive to begin with. For marginal dogs, maybe one needs to use all the tricks one can find to "build drive"?

Laura Sanborn

I had often heard from older German trainers about increasing a dog's desire to work by kenneling them full time.

I hadn't used the North Americans as an example since other breeds are allowed to compete there, and the importing of titled dogs to be used by professional handlers is much more of GSD type thing.

Only 4 out of 47 dogs at the 2004 North Americans (9%) were not GSDs.

The USA Nationals hasn't been restricted to GSDs in any of the past competitions that you referred to. The GSD-only rule goes into effect for the first time at the 2004 USA Nationals, later this year. Last year, 10 out of 65 dogs competing at the USA Nationals (15%) were non-GSDs.

Laura

:rolleyes:

One of the issues that has risen its ugly head in USA is that the memberships vote to follow the SV rules combined with limited resources has turned around to bite us in the ass.

The change to the Nationals being a GSD only event is to keep the USA as a GSD organization we have to have a GSD Nationals. This had been the GSD championship which has fallen aside. It has gone away because with a Seiger Show, a North American, and a Nationals it is a LOT for a small number of enthusiasts to keep going every year.

The other issue is one that really burns me. Since we have decided to emulate the SV to kkl our dogs we have to do all the things that the SV is doing and we have to do it in a way that the SV would recognize.....but they don't recognize it, we just seem to think we should do it that way. I guess with some stupid pipe dream of being the little SV out west.
To make the USA program grow we need to have our own breed suitability program in which a breeder or potential breeder can show up with their breeding stock on a given wekend and subject it to an evaluation that includes conformation and character as well as health and receive a license to breed and receive USA papers.....I don't care if the papers are tie dyed in color....USA needs this as a selling point for their stock. It would also be easy for people to get started in the program and encourage participation. But...NOOOOO we have to play little SV with a handful of loud voices getting all the attention.
This is my biggest bi@#$ about USA.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you Kevin. In all the time the issue was debated last year whether or not to restrict the USA Nationals to GSDs only, either on the USA-GSD email list, or at the USA General Board meeting where the vote was done, I don't recall anyone with any knowledge of the issue saying that the SV is mandating that USA must have a GSD-only championship. Lots of debate on both sides, just not that particular claim. I even came out and asked if the SV mandated it, and no one could claim any knowledge that the SV said anything about it.

Where does it say that USA must have a GSD only schutzhund national championship?

Laura

Originally posted by Kevin Sheldahl:

To make the USA program grow we need to have our own breed suitability program in which a breeder or potential breeder can show up with their breeding stock on a given wekend and subject it to an evaluation that includes conformation and character as well as health and receive a license to breed and receive USA papers. Has anyone here seen the Koerung done in Germany by the malinois breed club? I've heard it's a very demanding test. Supposedly in a whole different league from its SV counterpart.

Laura

Originally posted by Laura Sanborn:
Maybe I'm misunderstanding you Kevin. In all the time the issue was debated last year whether or not to restrict the USA Nationals to GSDs only, either on the USA-GSD email list, or at the USA General Board meeting where the vote was done, I don't recall anyone with any knowledge of the issue saying that the SV is mandating that USA must have a GSD-only championship. Lots of debate on both sides, just not that particular claim. I even came out and asked if the SV mandated it, and no one could claim any knowledge that the SV said anything about it.

Where does it say that USA must have a GSD only schutzhund national championship?

Laura I was at the GB meeting during the discussion and with Elder during the break that followed. I wasn't a voting delegate, just a fly on the wall since I was there and curious.
No, you are right, the SV didn't mandate anything that I'm aware of, nor did I say that the SV mandated it. The SV does not really care what we do. This is where the problem is. USA has decided to follow the the SV....by instituting a rule that says we will follow SV rules in all things. But, not only peertaining to the RULE many people, and the loudest people, support the IDEA that they are a GSD club trying to be just like the SV. So, what kind of organization that is a breed club doesn't have a exclusive championship for that breed and what would the SV think of us if we didn't???? is the sentiment.
In a lot of ways this is just semantics...no one wanted to cut out the Nationals but they needed the GSD Ch. due to fears that WDA would overtake them as the SV's darlings. Soooo, they cut the GSD Ch. and cut alternate breeds from the Nationals.
This goes back to a few very loud voices who really want to be seen as the little SV out west. The truth is that virtually everyone I talk to agrees we need to have our own breed program if USA is to flurish.
USA is a GSD Club. I've been involved in it most of the last 22 years. It always relied on other breeds to boost numbers but as the registration program and the conformation program begins to be a bigger part of the organization they are becoming less important. Also, as the USA fostered AWDF grows and member clubs begin to fullfill their needs with breed championships of their own it becomes less important to have the Nationals all breed. The emphasis for an all breed championship can shift to the North Americans and really should shift to being an AWDF event.
This won't happen if USA can't decide to recruit breeders through a much simplified program for helping them show a higher breeding standard than others in the US.
Lets face it, what USA needs work towards is that puppy sellers can claim such superiority in their breeding because the dogs have not only AKC paperwork but also USA-GSD paperwork and that it is feasable for them to maintain that standard with their breeding stock. When the public looks for dual registered GSD's then USA will have accomplished something.
Germans are not gonna flock to America for a GSD. The best that can be hoped for is some recognition that USA is a higher standard or even a more unique standard than what else is available at home.
I find it humerous that many many people speak of the CZ dogs on this board and elsewhere. Yet, a huge proportion of them have been bred under a completly independent program, titles and breed surveys, that aren't SV, but the program is unique and produces and sells dogs.
Now some poeple may look negatively on the idea that production of dogs and sales are important. Yet, unquestionably it is. What else are you gonna do with the pups?? How else is someone going to offset some of the costs of an expensive hobby? This is important.

Kevin, I hope you're going to the GBM this year. Perhaps you can give us all an "insiders" report!

The 2004 USA General Board Meeting will be held Thursday, November 4th in Nashville, Tenn.
I understand this year they will be electing the USA line officers: President, Vice-President, Secretary and Treasurer. In addition, the positions of Director of Judges, National Breed Warden, 4 Executive Board Members at Large, 7 Board of Inquiry Members, 1 USA Judge for the Judges Committee, 3 Members for the Auditing Committee, and 4 Members for the World Championship Committee.

So I suppose there will be some changes made in the future.

Now, I also read a proposal for "a region" to make a motion the USA Breed Registry be changed, "because right now breeders can only register litter's with both parents being titled and breed surveyed, which is hurting our breeding program."

Well, one can always follow AKC's example. They don't require much at all (except $$), and breeders can pretty much do what whatever they want...