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Re: Trust and Respect
[Re: Lou Castle ]
#6634 - 07/26/2001 10:27 AM |
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I must ask - what is it in your experience that lead you to conclude that the dogs are self serving and do not care for the handler?
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Re: Trust and Respect
[Re: Lou Castle ]
#6635 - 07/26/2001 11:11 AM |
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If your question is addressed to me, Bill, here is a very short answer. First, I don't have time to explain the many ways that dogs are self-serving. My gosh---watch your dogs or the dogs of others! Second, I NEVER said that dogs don't care for us!! I said they don't LOVE us in the manner that humans love other humans. Now, if a dog is not bonded to its handler/owner, I guess you could say it doesn't "care" for that person; however, here again, the use of a word like "care" is dangerous because it sets folks up for misreading dogs---a SERIOUS problem that leads to all kinds of issues between dogs and people.
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Re: Trust and Respect
[Re: Lou Castle ]
#6636 - 07/26/2001 11:25 AM |
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Ken,
If dogs work to satisfy drives, is there any rational thought there? Or is it just as you say, more like cathexis?
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Re: Trust and Respect
[Re: Lou Castle ]
#6637 - 07/26/2001 11:46 AM |
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Bill writes:I must ask - what is it in your experience that lead you to conclude that the dogs are self serving and do not care for the handler?
*** Bill did you not read my post about dogs doing building searches, bomb searches, heck narcotic searches? These, and in many cases even handler protection have little to do w/ serving a handler, or love. You need a working bond so the dog will work with you, but they are doing it for themselves. Take some time and watch a dog.. it's not that hard to see.
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Re: Trust and Respect
[Re: Lou Castle ]
#6638 - 07/26/2001 11:59 AM |
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Josh, I asked for what you see. Merely asked a question. I don't agree with your view, so I don't see what you do. I see dogs that are devoted, which to me is stronger than a love for the handler and their families.
I am not inviting an attack on my experience with dogs, which is a common defense to questions I ask on this board. I also do not revere you as all knowing because of yours.
I was, however, asking for clarification on your experiences. People can make up any reasons they want as to why a dog protects, or why a dog tracks, but what makes you believe what you do? What has happened in your experience that lead to you believe it?
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Re: Trust and Respect
[Re: Lou Castle ]
#6639 - 07/26/2001 12:12 PM |
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Bill,
If you don't see it or train it, I can't convince you of it. I'm not degrading you for experience, nor asking you to revere mine. Train how you like, believing what you like.
I gave you plenty of experiences of why patrol training, bomb training, narc training to support what I feel. Again, with these examples please explain why YOU feel I am not correct. Please explain to me why the dog looks for a bomb, dope, badguys? Why do they range off into a dark unknown place on a building search? If the dogs did it because of their bond w/ a handler, they would never leave them to go search..would they? If the bond is what makes the dogs perform, why is it so difficult to find good patrol dogs? Wouldn't every GSD or Mal do they work because of their bond w/ a handler? I'm not being a smartass, I would really like to hear your answers to the questions.
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Re: Trust and Respect
[Re: Lou Castle ]
#6640 - 07/26/2001 01:22 PM |
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Originally posted by Catherine Amodeo:
Ken,
If dogs work to satisfy drives, is there any rational thought there? Or is it just as you say, more like cathexis?
Catherine,
You mention rational thought here. Rational thought involves reasoning. Dogs cannot reason. B.F. Skinner in his magnum opus has explained how an animal's mind works. Read up on Operant Conditioning.
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Re: Trust and Respect
[Re: Lou Castle ]
#6641 - 07/26/2001 02:15 PM |
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Thanks Ken. I'm pretty familiar with operant conditioning - its a simple concept.
I have often seen problem-solving abilities, rational discernment, and independent decision-making capabilities in a dog. I see it by simply observing dogs. I am not anthropomorphizing. Many people do have a tendency to do that with animals, but I do not.
I am interested in why some think a dog has no rational thought. I continue to explore this.
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Re: Trust and Respect
[Re: Lou Castle ]
#6642 - 07/26/2001 02:32 PM |
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Having read the mails on this subject which are interesting and good,I am amazed that nobody seems to realise that training a dog for any purpose is purely a means of refining and controlling what is perfectly natural to a dog,be it search work,attack work or detection.A dog has a natural ability to do all these thing and all we do is to refine those skills to suit our own particular needs.We dont have the ability to produce the perfect dog,only to improve what is already there,hence the need for selection.
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Re: Trust and Respect
[Re: Lou Castle ]
#6643 - 07/26/2001 02:39 PM |
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