lou's desciption of the tie out test put in a nutshell the difference in what one would look for in police work as opposed to a sport dog.

I'm gonna jump in here. It is very important to note that what Lou and the rest of us who use the same or similiar test are looking for is not really something different than a sport dog. It is to weed out the dogs that are in the sport that aren't the top strata. I can absolutly guarantee that the majority of the respected sport dogs do well under the test and that many of the respected sport dog trainers are looking for the same things.
There is just more latitude since the sport is for the people competing and the sport is not expressly for selecting patrol dogs but also family dogs, detector dogs, and S&R dogs as well.

I'm gonna have to say that I think that there's a vast difference between what I look for in a police service dog and what I'd look for in a dog for sports work.

For police work I want a dog that has pronounced fight drive and just a little prey drive. I wouldn't want to take that dog onto a sport field because someone who had a dog with those drives reversed (all other things being equal of course) would do much better. These days it's very difficult to find a dog like this. Most breeders, Germany is a good example, have nearly bred fight drive out of existence and allowed prey drive to flourish.

It has to do with a couple of things; one is how the two drives, prey and fight are satisfied. Another is that prey drive is much harder to control (for the out, for example) than is fight drive. Prey drive is satisfied by "killing" the prey. Fight drive is satisfied by the detention or driving off of the opponent. In the first, the bite is much deeper as the dog has to kill the prey to win. In the second the bite is usually not as deep and the dog isn't as intense. If you think about it from this angle it becomes clear that killing is a much more intense activity than merely driving off or detaining an opponent.

I've tested many sport dogs with high level degrees that "failed" my stakeout test. That is, I didn't consider them suitable for police work. They had already reached very high levels in sport work. Many more sport dogs have failed than have passed. It's not about just looking for the upper strata. It's about looking for a different level and balance of drives than is being used by most in the sport world today.

Remember what it says at the end of my article though, "I’m not advocating this test for everyone. I use it because it lets me select a dog that fits into my style of training."

Lou, with your type of testing, fight being a necessary factor, it seems you still look for a clear headed dog. Wouldn't that clear headed dog still have the ability to do the other tasks, SAR, etc? It seems to me that a dog that could pass the different test were speaking of, could still be an all around good dog in the right hands. I think I just found the problem. "In the right hands!"

VC, with the sharpness you like in a dog, would that change anything in your idea of a good test?

I don't know if it would. I would like to see dogs that can identify a threat and then react to it in a forward manner.

I can select the type of dog I like, as long as the traits are still present genetically in the working breed. It would be too complex to build an examination that could encompass what everyone wants in a dog.

I think my idea for a baseline test to be offered would be more focused on identifying dogs who have a forward temperament or a backward one. LOL

More specifically, I'd like to see a basic exam that seperated the dogs that run away from a realistic threat from the dogs that will stand their ground or engage the threat. It can be that simple.

An off lead muzzle test during a random handler protection scenario would be enough to see a telling response in most dogs. Follow that up with some pressured sleeve bites and helper attacks on the lone dog (without handler support) and I think you could have a very basic and effective title to help breeders and dog buyers.

I think the ability for the dog to stand his ground under threat and have the mental strength to stand up to an attack would benefit the breed in every type of work that is demanded of it.

(To account for a trained resonse, I'd like to see the decoy testing the dog heighten his level of agitation and threat as the dog rises to the occasion. When the dog pushes, push back a little to test the response a bit more.)

A good Lou Castle stake out test seems to me to require a bit more savy and real world experience than what is available in most Schutzhund clubs. The more simple the exam, the better chances of being able to put something like this together.

Having a guy walk up to a off lead dog with handler and acting aggressive while throwing some lawn furnature or something is pretty simple, so is judging the response from the dog. He either stands his ground (good), backs down (bad), or engages (very good). I'd say a pass or fail judgment of the test would be sufficient.

So a basic random off-lead protection scenario in muzzle, some agitation and pressured bites without a lot of prey stimulation on a lone dog, and a courage test would be a step in the right direction.

There would have to be a minimum age though, Correct? A young dog, even with great potential, could be destroyed with any such test.

That could be a good idea. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />


I recently tested, for the first time, my young female who was just about 2 years old at the time with a set of late night off lead protection scenarios with some pretty serious pressure from the decoy. I felt she was more than ready, and she didn't have problems, nor did it adversly affect her work or temperament. (although her work is already hectic and her temperament already psychotic. LOL just kidding. . .kinda. . .we are talking Fetz's litter sister here.)

Oh. . .got sidetracked. . .I think 2 years is enough to use as a guideline.

I agree that SCH should be harder to raise the general quality of the genepool, it´s to easy to obtain a SCH3, which is evident in all the showdogs carrying this title. Of course you could make it harder, but I do not think this as the way to better a breed, based on the fact that to few dogs are going to be titled anyway. Something different is needed to test all dogs that doesn´t get the chance to be titled. A test open for all which requires no or minimal training. I think such a test must be as much standardized as possible, otherwise it´s impossible to compare different dogs. We want to measure the genetic differences between two different dogs, not the skill of the handler. A stake-out test is good to judge the induvidual dog but hard to standardized. If there are going to be bitework in a test this will favour dogs with some experience in this, I guess many people then also will not enter the test because many have no intresst, or most important the skill to do this.
We are working on a new test in Sweden, which should be ready 2007. People from different instances like the police and others are working together to construct this test. It contains different parts tested different ages of the dogs. The first test is an envirometal test performed on quite young dogs, 6-8 months, playing tug on slippery floors,dark room and stairs. The second test is a mentaltest when the dog is about 12 months. After that a few months later there is another test where endurance in searching and spontaneous tracking skills are tested, also climbing a ladder and some kind of balancetest and a few other things.
Only dogs that are recommended are then allowed to enter the final test when the dog is between 24-48 months. When all tests are passed they get the title koerung. The final test are a bit similar to the mentaltest at 12 months but a bit harder. I think this test could help breeders and puppybuyers to find good dogs without a lot of training and such.

I've tested many sport dogs with high level degrees that failed my stakeout test. That is, I didn't consider them suitable for police work. They had already reached very high levels in sport work. Many more sport dogs have failed than have passed. It's not about just looking for the upper strata. It's about looking for a different level and balance of drives than is being used by most in the sport world today.

lou,
You need to reread the post I placed. It says respected dogs and respected competitors. Since I spend a bit of time seeing the dogs that make up this comunity I will state again that there is not a difference between what you seek in your stake out test and what this strata are made up of.
There is a strong push among the working line folks to preserve the working GSD.
The character traits they want in a dog are the same. They may train differently and you may see different things from them on the field but the traits are the same.
That is not what is generally sold as police dogs that make their way here. There are enough people willing to purchase such critters at home.
Should have been at Ed's for the last seminar. I could have pointed out half a dozen dogs to your liking. But, you won't find them sitting in a venders kennel.