Travis, You make some good points. I'm sure that most people would agree that whether we own dogs to compete with or not, we consider our dogs to be our companions. With that said, I'm sure some people wind up with great dogs loaded with potential but could give a rat's a$$ about Shutzhund, or anything else to do with working a dog. For them, the dog is simply a pet.

IMO, for a progeny to develop into a success, good dogs need to wind up with people that will strive to achieve something with them. This in turn builds recognition for the breeder along with examples of the type of dogs they are producing. I suspect that it's one of the reasons (most) breeders I've seen encourage people to stay in touch with them about all aspects of each pup's life as they go to their new owners. In addition, most breeders will ask what you want the dog for, i.e. Schutzhund, companion, show, etc. By appropriately placing their litters, breeders better their chances for success.

Now understand that Bastin has been bred numerous times, and his sons and daughters are producing their own litters. This amounts to virtually hundreds of dogs out of him. Sure not everyone that has a pup from him is trying to win the BSP, but you would think that just through a law of numbers a few of them would show up somewhere as high level competitors. This just hasn't been the case, (yet).

You mentioned that your pup is a Bastin grandson out of an untitled bitch. To some that may not mean anything, because some people don't see a title as a measurement of whether or not a dog is a good working dog. However, it says to me that you have a breeder selling puppies based soley on Bastin's glory, with no regard given to the actual working ability of his direct offspring before she was bred. Without a title, no one knows what kind of dog she is. Yet my hunch is that same breeder will advertise the litter as dogs suitable for high level sport work, police or personal protection. You buy into this and rightfully so, your excited and at the same time hopeful. Otherwise you wouldn't be here asking questions.

My question would be why isn't your dog's dam titled? Who knows, that is a question your breeder should answer. At least with a title (in most cases) you have proved that the dog is of some quality and worthy of breeding. I mean THAT WAS the primary objective of Schutzhund in the first place before it became a contest for points. Its intent is to stand as a test designed to evaluate the working ability and breed worthiness of an individual dog.

So my only point here is that when people don't adhere to some sort of guidelines for breeding, how can the progeny have a chance for success? I am not trying to knock you down, because I certainly don't have all the answers, it's just my opinion and theory on the matter.

you are very right in the sense that who knows what an untitled bitch will produce, but you know as well as i do that its a crapshoot on a pup anyways. the fact is the bitch was a nice dog, i got a chance to watch it work briefly, it was a very young female it did have a lot of defense. IMO i think the breeder should have titled the female first, but she was very young (21 months), and he wanted to see if the she would produce pups before he started titling her (stupidity), they is working on titling her now. the untitled bitch's dam had a pedigree that i thought was just fine (Blek/otina ben-ju/fiasko/chuna policia/titus z PS/marco danaru) and her mother was on premises as well, a very strong and hard bitch from appearance. Im not stupid, i knew that it was more risky to go with a litter from an untitled dog, but there were 15 BSP/WUSV/LGA participants in the pups 5 generation pedigree, (they were also linebred 5-4 on Fero but that isnt that close). i originally was looking at a different litter from the same breeder: a stud dog in germany (WUSV part.)X schH 3 bitch linebred 3-3 on lord (she got SchH at 24 months with 287), but the pups from that litter were older and displayed an overall less uniform drive and temperment. the bastin grandsons were younger and were already showing more prey drive than the older pups, and they all seemed good. i also got my "pick" of that litter and saved money. At the best you can look at pedigrees all day but the proof was in seeing the pups.
On the other hand, i dont necessarily think bastin is a great dog, however he has acheived a lot of things with the help of his handler/handlers. Bastin was only 3 when he came to the US so a lot of his progeny are just now starting be old enough to really tell how they are. Not to mention his grandsons/daughters. with all that said i havent seen any other progeny from bastin, they might all suck, but how were the bitches he was bred to? they might have sucked also. i believe that pedigrees are at best a guideline to follow, who knows how any pup will turn out. it depends on the training, and socialization of the pups too. And John i respect you a member of this board, im certain that you know a lot more than i do, i new at this...

Well it sounds like you put a lot of thought and research into buying your dog which is what you should do. I applaud you for that. It's a good thing that you got to spend time with the breeder and see your pups dam work.

Pedigrees don't mean much (back to the crapshoot thing) but I like my chances with pedigrees as you mentioned for prospective working dog vs. buying a showlines dog for sport.

I wish you the best of luck with your new pup, and I'm sure you'll do fine. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

To me, Bastin was an example of the right dog for the right handler ( while in Europe ). However, I think the dogs success is more due to the excellent training and handling it recieved versus his genetics. I'll add that's just my opinion and observation.

I do feel that he's been bred indiscrimately while here in the U.S., and so many breedings to so many different bitches was bound to produce a fair amount of "surplus" puppies with insufficent drives for high level sports work ( and as John pointed out, you'd think that most of the breeding were aimed towards producing working dogs ), but those puppies are going to be sold just the same - and since many people buy puppies and have *no* idea how to temperment test the puppy ( especially for novice handlers ), we'll end up with a lot of folks trying to enter the sport with a puppy that looks good on paper, but will disappoint the handler down the line when it matures.

If ya'll think back several years ago, the same thing happened with Piriol ( spelling? ) but on the other end of the spectrum. Gary Hanrhaan did great with that dog, but the dog was a thug and had a more typical "cop dog" temperment. He threw this temperment to a lot of his pups, and those dogs did not end up the high point sport dogs that the prospective puppy buyers had hoped for. They were however tough little SOB's...

my breeder said that gary put bastin on a table so that the helper was at eye level (table training) which i wouldnt call excellent training for a dog that already seems to have a lot of defense, or any dog for that matter. he also said the one thing that he would say about seeing bastin work is that he was one awesome dog overall.

I have a 21 month old Bastin daughter. Extreme prey drive, but directable and clear headed. Quick, flashy obedience. She has excellent drive for the track, but we're still working on settling her in to that methodical, (boring) SchH footstep tracking. She is just starting to show defense and aggression in the bite work. Excellent grips... hard and shoved back to the tonsils. Very sound nerve overall. She's been exposed to a variety of flooring surfaces, dark buildings, open stair cases, and of course gunshots and has never shown any environmental sensitivity. Very confident and social. Medium sized and very athletic, with very good overall structure. Pigment could be better. Prelims show good joints, we're just waiting for her to be old enough for the official OFAs.

There is a male littermate in my SchH club, and he displays much the same temperament. Though unlike my female he can become a bit hectic when high in drive, and it's taken a while to teach him to bark rather than scream. I believe this is part genetics, and part training.

Of course, these young dogs are also out of a very strong female. Their dam is a daughter of Harro vom Sickinger Moorwerk, a Fado Karthago and Troll Körbelbach grandson, and Citty Haus Ming (linebred 2-2 Mink). She is a tough, very high drive, serious female with excellent nerve, good natural aggression.

Overall I am very happy with my Bastin daughter and she will be getting her BH and SchH1 this year.

|ravis -

take a LOOK at the pedigree of your dogs sire!!! It is pretty darn good IMHO and some pretty prominant dogs in the same position in the pedigree as Bastin - who is the dam's sire - not the only dog in the pedigree. Not the sire of the pup. I am assuming you got the pup from Ygor's owner who recently just seemed to spring up on the net with alot of litters on his site. He has purchased alot of titled bitches, some coming in bred to European based males. Don't give credit or blame Bastin for the whole pup...look at the combinantion of lines.

I saw one female from Bastin for 5 minutes on the field. She barked. She bit. That is about all I can say - I certainly cannot draw conclusions about the dog as a sire by one progeny, let alone a grand progeny.

JMHO

Lee

I find that interesting, because a friend of mine told me Gary said he put Bastin on a table to train him the "Such Platz" method for tracking. Keep in mind that Bastin had already WON the BSP! Anyway, I'm not questioning Gary or his methods. His success in the sport speaks for itself. From my perspective though, all of these dogs have their own unique little quirks. It's just about pulling it all together come trial day. Funny when you think about the saying "Every dog has it's day". Bastin has had several of them. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

L M Hough,
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Will Rambeau
Moderatpr

Guys,
If this discussion becomes a table training discussion, I'm gonna close it. Discuss that stuff in private.


Will Rambeau
Moderator