Duhhh...Got it!!!

Doyle

OK no bark and hold.

The method I am about to describe will not disrupt his bark and hold since he doesn’t have one.

After you teach a reactive down in motion to this new DOWN word whatever it is ( I actually use the word DROP) you are going to secure a 20-30 ft. back line to a wide flat-collar used in agitation work.

Secure the other end of the line to a post or tree.

You are going to now hook another line to a corrective collar that is attached ABOVE the flat collar. I use a Flexi-leash here.

You have taught him the down in motion from heel using the new drop command. Now you are going to teach a down to recall.

Place the dog by the secure post and commands SIT/Stay. Leave the dog and extend the Flexi out to maximum distance. Recall the dog and at ½ to ¾ of the way coming toward you command the dog to DROP. (down)

If he does it: Great! Repeat this a few days.

If not: Take up the slack, recommand (drop)and correct into a down. Teach the down on recall using this EXACT scenario (back tie and all)because it is important for the next step. I will write it tomorrow.

 Quote:

Originally posted by Doyle W. Banks:
...she always waits for the dog to out on his own. It took several minutes that day - in fact, he even tried to take the sleeve into his cage.

Doyle, sounds like she was taking her dog back to the car and THERE she was allowing the dog to hold it as long as it wanted to. That's an excellent idea for a young dog or a hectic one. Since the whole goal was to win the sleeve/tug, the dog comes off the field the winner and he takes his prize back to his car/crate. There he is allowed to unload the stress or possessiveness he felt on the field. He is the king and you want him to feel that way. There's no need to rush taking his prize away from him. This is not an "out" issue; it's about building selfconfidence and possessiveness.

Lee,

You hit the nail on the head. That is exactly what happened.

Gotta tell you that I don't often laugh out loud at myself, but I got a belly laugh out of Deanna's response to my question.

Doyle

There is actually a fairly well known and respected trainer from the Great White North that teaches a "self out" Here is the link.
http://www.policek9.com/Trainers_Digest/selfout/selfout.html

I did this w/ some success with a dog that I inherited from the previous trainer. He in fact got him from another department. Talk about buying someone elses problem. The dog was very collar wise and it was aparent that he had suffered many abuses in there attempts to get him to out.

Lou's description was perfect. Clearly much conflict had been introduced into the training. This statement was definately true. "Some dogs think that any pain they get during a bite comes from the decoy. How does a dog make that pain stop? They kill the decoy, they don’t release him. That means they bite harder, not release the bite."

I later ran into some handlers who were familiar with the dog when it was at the previous police department. They said that they used everthing under the sun to try to get the dog out. "Throw chains, cattle prods, and anything else that they could think of.

We did get the dog to out fairly reliably using the technique that I decribed earlier but he would slip back into the old routine at times.

IMO if I can't get the dog to release w/o two good corrections into the sleeve with a long line and a pinch collar it's time to regroup and try something that is not as invasive.

At this point you have trained and conditioned the DROP command for a down.

Reset back tie on the dog and you on the corrective collar. The reason we did all this extra command training was to condition the dog in a way that there would be no mistake about who gave the leash correction and why the correction was given.

Now he is “dropping” down on command reliably. You place the dog at the end of the tie out with you behind the dog. Call the helper out and have him do a simple circle in bite and stop all movement while dog is on sleeve and limit agitator eye-contact.

Command the dog to “Drop-Ausssss” – (drop is combined with old out command as if together) correct and the dog should out. Most do. Repeat 1-2 more ties each day until you feel he is reconditioned properly.

If dog does not out on one command: The helper immediately slips the sleeve and walks away slowly without agitation. You repeat, “Drop” and correct. Even if the dog did not out he will go down almost every time.

Now move in front of the dog. If he still has the sleeve in his mouth. Tighten back tie line to the maximum length and command and correct the “drop-Ausss.”

Since he sees you and he has been conditioned to act dropping down he will comply at least for the down. Because you now have paired and extra word to out with this action of down will confuse him just enough so you can recondition his out on one command. It is interesting to know that we can get him to do one and also the other because he did the one. It is not clear to me why we can use one compliance to command to influence a another but I know we can

Keep working the area your dog is doing it and gradually work back to the goal of agitator in sleeve and outing the dog on one command.

The steps I have outlined worked for me every time. (on 4 dogs who refused to out)

If you are having a problem with this after 3-4 tries, you could try changing the prey item and use a tug or ball instead of a sleeve. Condition the out using this method then reintroduce the sleeve after a few days of training the routine and you are getting a reliable out from it.

***About Eden’s method***

I like the idea outlined on Eden’s website. It is interesting he uses fatigue to get the compliance from the dog and uses a reward incentive.

I would give his idea a try if only to see it work. I personally would do it only if the method I gave you does not work. To me, 45 minutes at a time to get the dog to out once, is a little crazy.

Maybe it is why I like it.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Good luck.

We tried Bob Eden's method on 1 of our dogs . This was only after trying virtually everything else. I was sorry we waited so long. I was the agitator on the 1st phase and when I 1st heard the method it sounded crazy too. But it worked. The time the dog spent on the sleeve went down drastically after the 1st two agitators. After about 3 days the dog was outing on command some of the times. After a week he was doing it consistantly . This dog also looked like a shark ,eyes rolling back in head , totally unaware of anything else around him. What I saw being the decoy was when the dog fatigued enough and was about to let go his eyes were no longer rolled back and he was aware what was going on around him . Most importantly he was aware of his handler. When the dog was about to come off the sleeve on his own and the handler gave the command at that same time, the dog got the picture that he was supposed to come off when the out command was given.I started seeing this by the second day of doing this method. This method also seemed to lower(satisfy)the desire to stay on the sleeve. This dog didn't antisipate the out after this method either. We never had to go back to this method. We just remained consistant with end controll on this particular dog. This method worked great for us. I wouldn't use this method on older or out of shape dogs since the 1st initial bite will physically tax the dog if he stays on for a long time.

Jim ... cool.

It is worth a try no doubt. An Idea that requires more then one helper though. Many people only have a couple (if they are lucky) to do this method. I wonder how Eden's method could be modified and still work. Since good helpers don't grow in open fields.

To help save the agitator's strength,arm and back we found a large elm tree that was almost at a 60 degree angle. When the dog was on the bite I moved to the crock of the tree layed against it. We tied a tracking lead to a sturdy branch and put a lope in it so I could put the end of the barrel sleeve in it so I didnt have to use all my strength holding the dog's front feet off of the ground. Since I was in the crock of the tree I could move far enough up the tree to keep the dog from putting his front feet against the tree which would allow him to stay on longer. With this set up I feel I could have taken multiple bites but since we had the additional agitators we used them. The first day was the toughest but the time the dog spent on the sleeve went down quickly after that. By the last few days it was me taking all the bites which was usually 3 bites a day.

Hey Dennis,I think that what Jim is talking about sounds very interesting too.You mentioned good helpers.I think all thats required in the way of helpers is someone to just hang on to something for support and wait out the dog.Ive been trying to think of ways to combine that with some other ideas too.