Sorry for my spelling mistakes, english is not my first language... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> well hope you understand...
Thank you

It's true that the Germans registered some native Czech shepherd dogs in the GSD studbook and it's probable that some of those were Chodsky Pes type herding dogs. But it would be inaccurate to say that the Chodsky Pes had any significant impact on the GSD breed, and they are not the source of the longcoat gene in the GSD. That was already existing in a good number of the German type dogs.

The Germans, the Austrians, the French, the Belgians the Dutch, the Czechs, etc, etc. . .all had various herding type dogs that were very similar in type, temperament, and utility. It was from those varied types of dogs that the Germans used when they narrowed the gene pool to make the GSD breed, and most of the dogs were of German type, were from Germany, and had deep roots in those areas. (meaning they were from bloodlines that went back about 1000 years in the region)

Robert where are you getting all your information from? I mean the information here and on your blog is very interesting reading. Can you recommend some articles, books, anything? I'm sure that some of this information was passed on to you from your grandfather but it would be a very interesting read if you could point out some sources. You should write a book!

Glenn

Most of what I have is taken from a bunch of translated letters, policy papers, and historic writings that I got from Ekhart Franz who did some historical writing on the SV, the GSD, and the industrial history of Germany. There are a lot of copies of his work on the net. I think that indirectly he is the source for the article written on the DVG's website about the history of the DVG.

He lives in Munich and has a lot of material. He was kind enough to translate most of what he had and sell it to me. I also hit e-bay daily for GSD stuff. I've purchased original breed books, letters of correspondence between different individuals, and all kinds of juicy crap.


A book you say? I'm no writer, I much prefer to hoard information all to my nasty little self.

Yes Robert, please share your sources. Particularly those that show there was a "German only" breed from which the GSD came, with no outside influence from a neighboring country, or breed. And dont forget to list the years they started breeding those dogs.

(The first documented professional breeding of the Chodsky was in the 1500s - please list the comparable dates and breeds of the German dogs in question.)

For you to claim FACTUAL KNOWLEDGE that the Chodsky isnt responsible for the long haired gene in the GSD suggests you or your sources are less than scientific in nature. (note - Im not saying they ARE the source)

Already a long haired dog running around Germany in the late 1800s? Of course there were.

The Chodsky dog is named for the area it came from. These dogs defended the Bavorsky Les as early as the 1300's. Possibly earlier. An avid GSD historian, such as yourself, can probably figure out that first word is Czech for Bavarian. Les means woods. If you werent aware, the Bavarian woods were the border of then Germany and then Czech Republic.

Do you think this LONG HAIRED breed (Chodsky) wasnt filtered into Germany by the 1800's? You think they were all kept on the east side of the border? You must, or you wouldnt be so quick to insist there were already "German" dogs to use for GSD breeding.

And you also think, that after at least 500 years of this breeding, they couldnt have been well-integrated into the "german" breeds that went into the GSD? Manifesting a long haired trait every now and then?

It would be silly to assume that by 1800 the German breeds you mention werent carrying a bit 'o Chodsky. If you understood more about this region, and the specific history between Germany and the Czech Republic, you would probably agree.

But hey, youre welcome to think as you please. And I will continue to do the same. I do NOT think the GSD comes from the Chodsky, per se. But Im not silly enough - or scientifically ignorant enough - to state something as finite as where their long hair gene came from - or didnt, as the case may be. I acknowledge the POSSIBILITY - and I acknowledge the fact that at least some Chodskys went into the GSD at some point.

If you want to take this up with me further, please PM.

(Thats a personal request based on something else entirely, btw. Nothing to do with this thread or subject.)

You're reading too much into what I said.

All these shepherd dogs probably come from the same source, but there have been shepherd dogs in all of Europe for thousands of years. There were longcoat types, shortcoat types, etc, etc in almost every corner of Europe going back to pre-Roman times.

I also didn't say that the Germans only formed the breed from German stock, just primarily from German stock. It's well documented in the first stud books that they did pull dogs from all over the region, including Czech type shepherd dogs. Probably Chodsky Pes dogs.

Although, I'm quite sure that the Chodsky Pes was not the source of the longcoat gene, because there have been longcoat shepherd type dogs all over Europe, Germany included, long before there was ever a Chodsky Pes breed. Do you understand where the dog's come from?

There was one general type of shepherd mutt throughout Europe, then people took those shepherd dogs and narrowed the gene pools (keeping the traits they wanted) and called them breeds. All of these shepherd dogs, the Chodsky Pes, the GSD, the Malinois, the Altdeutscher Schaeferhund, the Hovawart, etc, etc, etc come from the varied mutt herding dogs that populated all of Europe.

There are pieces of Celtic art showing long haired herding dogs that were found in the Lorraine area in France that date to 200 bc.

All these dogs are related, but the Germans had the same type of herding dogs that the Czechs did going back long before either breeds were formed.

I'll say it a little more clearly. The Germans have had longcoated herding dogs for a long time and the Czechs have had longcoated herding dogs for a long time, both probably come from the same source that all the European herding breeds come from, but that source pre-dates both the Chodsky Pes and the GSD throughtout Europe.

It's actually pretty rediculous to say that the longcoat gene came from the Chodsky Pes. That would be saying that prior to the introduction of the Chodsky Pes in Germany (fill in whatever date you want as to when that happened), there were no longcoated herding dogs anywhere in Germany.

That's false, there were longcoated herding dogs all over Europe that had been there a really really long time, as in like. . . before Christ. . .a really long time.

It's more realistic to say that the longcoat gene that is present in both the Chodsky Pes and the GSD probably dates back to the thousands of mutt shepherd dogs that populated all of Europe before either breed was formed.

I did ask you to continue this by PM, which I see you did, but you wanted the last word here first.

You can have it.

But first I will say this - youre right. Its ridiculous to say the long hair gene came from the Chodsky. Thats why I didnt say it. Its almost ridiculous as you stating its not possible.

But then, I have a scientific background and am prone to rational deduction.

I absolutely understand where the breeds came from. The Chodskys direct ancestor was the Czech Mastiff. Extinct now, but around when your GSD was first 'made'.

Id love to go tit for tat on you with this, but its silly for the following reasons:

1. I stated possibilities that you can neither prove nor disprove.

2. You arent interested in what I have to say, or you would have read my post before you responded to it.

Your turn. And I promise, you will get the last word this time, funny man.

Reesie: "The GSD was bred up from this dog in the 1800s (Chodskys go back to at least the 1300s). Chodskys are smaller and more furry (which is why some GSD are furry)"

Reesie: "But first I will say this - youre right. Its ridiculous to say the long hair gene came from the Chodsky. Thats why I didnt say it."


All I can do is read what you post and infer your meaning from it. If for some reason I misunderstood the above quote, I'm sorry and please correct me.

Hallo Robert I have no knowledge about the breeding nor had my father.. The only breeder in Czech who could tell you or anybody about the breeding and mixes is Jiri Novotny. He is the only person I know of, besides the former z PS officers that had the knowledge and were involved in the process and selection. And honestly, I am not quiet sure he knows the whole "package". I just know that Jiri has the closest to the old fasion PS dogs and former BRD/DDR dogs. The breeding books were never public and it was something like the secret... and people of Czechoslovakia.. were very proud of it.
If I remember well enough... the Czech breeds were not very hairy, quiet the opposite. My father took 3 dogs with him home.. and he could take the retired ones.. usualy age 8 and over or the unwanted ones, or for some reason the weird looking ones. I saw only pictures, they were bigger in construction and a bit less hairy than the show GSD
The last pup we had from those guys was light sable color, very large dog with tremendous pray drive....(he also ended up being shot because he was a hunter).
I am writing about the actual zPS dogs in a Communist Czechoslovakia. My dad never took in a Bich from the neighborhood, he always went back there and had his dogs bred to the z PS dogs. And he did not sell them just kept the type of dog he loved.
Jiri Novotny keeps the dogs Standard look and size for Breed purposes and registration, he also breeds well and it is his passion. He tries to keep those dogs untached by the local breeds or the show type. But sometimes he tries hard to make those dogs also good for the look... But most of the dogs are larger and less temperamental than they used to be....But you probably wont see them in the US unless they are sold for police.... the hight usually is over 65 cm which is the maximum. Dargo Ja-ha-da was a good sized dog, but Pluto, Chuligan are Huge well over the max. From what I know, Chasinta and Chayma are the ultimate bitches and also Mambo is the old z PS Look stud.. just a tiny bit smaller I believe he is about 65.. Those are Novotnys dogs... and they are the "real deal". He also keeps some of the dogs for himself and doesnt sell them to US... The best onec <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
That is all I know aboy the z PS dogs.. besides some stories my father lold me.
And I have no idea what position has or doesn't have Chodsky pes in this... migh as well be a totaly different dog, or have some of the history involved.. I dont know.