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Here is a link to some vocabulary that might help people get on the same page here....
http://www.k9services.com/CaninePsychology.htm

Wow! This is a great resource, and I appreciate it.

It's a lot to digest, and I have loads of questions to research, but I'd like to ask two:

1. QUOTE: It is the desire to do combat on behalf of the pack leader END QUOTE

Using this vocabulary and these definitions, would the phrase "on behalf of the pack leader" always narrow the definition of "fight drive," as it does here?

2. Is there a term for the opposite of sharpness, the way hardness and softness are the two ends of the stress-recovery spectrum?

Thanks.

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Long yakking

Yep, not known for being brief.

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That's a high horse you're on. Have a great day and enjoy the view.

My horse isn't any higher than yours, or anyone else's for that matter. It's really a shame that you can't carry on a conversation without a personal attack and rude comments like this. I was merely pointing out a few things. If we're using different meanings of the words it's impossible to carry on a meaningful conversation. I didn't reject your definition, or anything else you wrote. In fact I said, " If it works for you, that's great." Too bad really. I'd suggest that you read this quote from George Bernard Shaw, "Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted."

In any case, discussion about drives often degrade into name calling when immature people are involved. I know some who say that there are only four drives and two subdrives. I know others who have a list of drives that is two pages long, single-spaced and lists about a hundred different drives. This list says that ball drive is different than Frisbee drive is different from stick (retrieving) drive. Since this is a man-made concept that was invented to explain what we're doing there isn't a single right answer, no matter whose website you look at or whose book you read. But to have a meaningful discussion about drives we all need to agree on the definition of the words we're using.

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Note that here in the US essentially the same definitions are used by the USBP, Utah POST, Nebraska State Patrol, and Kansas Highway Patrol as well as many others.

Kevin it's my understanding that the Kansas Highway Patrol is just now putting a Trooper in for K9 Training. His name slips my mind but do you know who's training him and where his dog is coming from? I thought I heard he was training somewhere in Topeka, Kansas.

Glenn

Well,
Maybe a little back ground on where all the drive stuff comes from.
Early behavioralists like Konrad Lorenz (author of books like "on aggrssion" and "Of Man and Dog") used the term drive in their discriptions of animal behavior. This is where the vocabulary in the police dog school came from, the early observational behaviorists. Not a bunch of dog trainers.
Over time the use of "drives" lost favor among psychologists because they are impossible to quantify. Now the term drive is relegated to non-scientific endeavors such as dog training where it is still useful. But, like so many things we see people creating their own vocabulary...the nowspeak of a popular hobby.
Then to add to this is trends seen in the hobby and people attempting to use vocabulary to explain what is being emphasized and people marketing their "new improved" version of the same old thing.
It would be like trying to explain a new offense in american football to someone who had only seen soccer except that the two groups are playing with the same ball. Misunderstanding occurs. That's why I posted the most basic old police dog program's vocabulary on my site. It has been relatively unchanged for many many years prior to us getting our hands on it.
Sure you can call thing scratching drive, or kibble drive, or what ever. But, for what reason????

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In any case, discussion about drives often degrade into name calling when immature people are involved. I know some who say that there are only four drives and two subdrives. I know others who have a list of drives that is two pages long, single-spaced and lists about a hundred different drives. This list says that ball drive is different than Frisbee drive is different from stick (retrieving) drive. Since this is a man-made concept that was invented to explain what we're doing there isn't a single right answer, no matter whose website you look at or whose book you read. But to have a meaningful discussion about drives we all need to agree on the definition of the words we're using.

KHP has had dogs for 8-10 years. First starting with dope dogs (a friend donated the first one). Now they have patrol dogs not sure when they started with that but initially Nebraska helped them out and a few attended courses in Utah. Details I'm not privey to although I have met a few of their handlers over the years.

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Note that here in the US essentially the same definitions are used by the USBP, Utah POST, Nebraska State Patrol, and Kansas Highway Patrol as well as many others.

Kevin it's my understanding that the Kansas Highway Patrol is just now putting a Trooper in for K9 Training. His name slips my mind but do you know who's training him and where his dog is coming from? I thought I heard he was training somewhere in Topeka, Kansas.

Glenn

Not sure what you mean by narrow the definition??

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1. QUOTE: It is the desire to do combat on behalf of the pack leader END QUOTE

Using this vocabulary and these definitions, would the phrase "on behalf of the pack leader" always narrow the definition of "fight drive," as it does here?

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Not sure what you mean by narrow the definition??...

I meant, would fight drive always be defined by the desire to do combat "on behalf of the pack leader"? Would that phrase always be part of the definition?

P.S. I spent a couple of hours last night on that site you linked us to, and on other sites going into deeper detail of those definitions....... another good learning experience resulting from this forum.

To think that the original, German definitions are the only ones that should be used today, decades later is, I think, off base or at the very least, limiting.

As for people "creating their own vocabulary" if it helps them in their training "HOORAY." The person that I mentioned as having a list of about a hundred drives is and has been for several years, the head of POST K9 training for a western state, so I guess his marketing trick is working. LOL.

One question if i may

Can a dog with a one bite hold style fight effectively?

In my opinion, "Fighting" and the ability to fight, and "fight drive" are not the same...so in giving you my opinion here I'm going off topic...

One, calm, deep grip is not good for "fighting", but it is a more easily legally upheld style and is more conducive to less damage to the apprehended person.

One calm, deep grip I guess is a sport term.