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Well I used to be a GSD person and now Im only a working dog person.But if I was still a GSD person then I would lobby to have a breed survey test like the Schutzhund of old and the sport version could coexist.But the sport should not be used to determine a dogs worthiness to pass on genes.Max was against breeding for sport when the breed was still young.IMO sport is sport and not "work" because the reward for work is completion of the task and reward for sport is titles and trophies.There are 2 totally different attitudes for training and therefore there are 2 different attitudes for breeding.Just my point of view.

Schutz isn't extreme enough as a test. an "average" dog can get good results. You need a sport where only the best survive. It isn't about the rewards. In BR there are Hundreds of trainers that train for years without getting a dog in competition. It's about training the best dog there is, if you're dog isn't good enough you start all over again knowing that 1 or 2 years of training went down the drain. And it is the army, police etc. that profit from this. The dogs that we turn down are bought by police/army etc and they get well trained dogs for a fair price.



Greetings


Johan

I probably should of clarified that he was not using GSD's. I truely don't think it's possible to produce 70 out of a 100 working dogs at the place we are now. Yes I believe that severe culling would be good for the breed. If there was a breed warden who was respected and made breeders cull sub-standard litters I think it would greatly discourage money-grubbers and general scumbags from breeding. I also think that as long as we as working dog lovers continue to charge excessive prices for the GSD we will continue to destroy the breed.(I also might have been hit in the head too many times, possible drain bramage)As far as du Pottois, I was told that while he kept a record of the true pedigrees, the order the dogs were in was incorrect on the pedigrees given to others. I am sure he was hiding NVBK dogs as well. I cannot say that I care <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I like it when they work!

When you mix you do get less of the offending gene for the first generation. Then you get that fun second generation with problems popping up all ovewr the place from all the hidden recessives.

I agree that all the Shutzhund we are doing with Mals is going to destroy the breed. Look at this basic fact: People want to breed to the winner. No matter what anyone says this is how it goes. First off it is not much of a challenge for a Mal if you look at the criteria for ringsport. Now I am not slamming on shutzhund, it was a good test for the GSD, but it is too dependant on the handler. an example: in the exercises the dog is commanded to do everything, directed by the handler. This is why the GSD is what it is. The Mal is expected to think on it's own in the object guard,the defense, and the escort for instance. Why would you continue to do shutzhund when you have a Mal????? That to me is cheating,overkill ect. Again I am not slamming on any sport, just saying that we need to keep in mind what the dog is bred to do when we pick a sport and have the intention of breeding the dog. I would also like to see the HGH come back, unreasonable or not. The dogs had to think on their own to do the work. I possibly might just be too greedy

Ummm, Jeff - there's an object guard in SchH for the WH title, myself and probably many forum members have done several.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

If, we truly want to improve the GSD, I think it will be through advancements in AI and not going outside the breed. But, who knows when AI will become cost efficient. It shouldn't take more than 10 years and should be a boon for the breed if used properly.

Right now, the cost is prohibited the last time I check it's about 1200 dollars, plus shipping, plus vet cost and traveling to experienced clinic. Most breeders have to drive or transport their bitch half -way around the country to have it done by someone with experience.

When it gets to the point where you the breeder or local vet can do AI at a high success rate. The cost of sperm, transporting and implantation could drop down to what using a local stud cost.

Think about it you could have access to studs and bloodlines like never before. The best the Czech's, Belgian's and German's have to offer.

Re: tracy brown's suggestion to use AI more in the future:

I've heard it suggested that inbreed coefficients for GSDs that are calculated back to the founders of the breed average 18%, even for those dogs with 0-6% 10 generation COI.

Do any posters have an opinion on the likelihood of "international" working dog litters such as Tracey described having founder COI's of less than 18%.

*****

If you go to a mal, then founder COI is 0% or some # approaching zero.

At F2, bred back into GSD lines, I believe an average founder COI would be 9%? do my mathematics betray me?

At F3, 13.5%?

At F4, 15.75%?

Laura Sanborn, I bet you can correct this calculation if it is incorrect.

rgds andrew may

>>>>>For example...To me a higher measure of success is when a breeder produces 70 working pups out of 100, as opposed to one who has produced 300 out of 1,000. Just another way of looking at it. <<<<<<<<

I for one think that 70 out of a hundred dogs produced being good working dogs is not even attainable.
Experimental breeding programs have attained a level of one half being kept to work at 7 months and of that half most make it with a few being tossed out as they mature. This ends up looking like less than half.
The very trait that allowed dogs to be so easily domesticated and to keep a pack in order and vital...the extreme variability of social behavior.....will keep the numbers down.

How many actually do it (the WH) When you look at the number of Schutzhund 3's out there? Maybe this should be mandatory. Think anyone would go for that?

Of course, all dogs should just do ringsport so my world domination plot can come to life <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />