First of all, how old is the dog and what previous training does the dog have? If he as too young for defensive work you may have a more difficult problem to deal with. Or if he doesn't have a foundation in prey, there may be problems as well.

Second, what do you want the dog to do? Sport and/or Pure personal protection?

To me it sounds like the trainer put some bad experiences into your dog by flanking him and not allowing your dog to work through the stress that he put onto him. Kudos on vetoing the table training, though!

The first thing I would do is get Ed's video on "the first steps of Defense" It will give you the groundwork to understand how Defense should be trained and the information you need to find a trainer who does it the right way. If you can find someone who can do defense the video describes and much the way Andres describes it above. If your dog has the right genetics, and is given time to work through the stress of defense it should help to build its confidence and understand that it can fight and win in situations like that trainer put him into.

I noticed you are in the Chicago area. If you want a referral, just PM me, I can refer you to the person who has worked my dog. My dog's a German Showline male who is 2 1/2 now, so we proceeded with his defense pretty delicately - and only after he had a firm foundation in prey. It took time and patience, but we do civil work with him, with muzzle and without, and give him hidden sleeve bites as well on multiple decoys. It took time, but his confidence is very high right now and he's quite strong when put into those situations.

--Alan...

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Sorry to reply to an old post, but I'm wondering how much damage can be done to a dog pushed into protection through defense and avoidance. I'm asking because I unwittingly (of course) took my dog to a trainer that appeared to be reputable (well, at least not a redneck jackass) and now I find out that this guy is notorious for ruining dogs he has not bred, so he can take advantage of a discouraged owner and sell them a "quality" puppy. My dog only went 5 times, and the 5th time I walked out because the trainer argued with me, insisting that my dog was West show lines, when he' s not. I showed him where I'd gotten the dog online, and he then claimed that "Well, maybe they're not really his parents". Talk about excuses! Anyway, now my dog doesn't like going into buildings where there are other dogs. He associates it with a freak running around and pinching him really hard, I guess. I vetoed the table idea when he brought it up as an "experiment" to show me that my dog is junk and I overpaid. Anyway, I apologize if this is covered somewhere else, but I couldn't find it. Could he have been ruined for protection already? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Alan, Caleb is going to be 2 on Dec 11. He was about 18-20 mos old when he went there. Seemed like he should have been old enough, but after being told he was hopeless junk, I contacted the breeders who own both parents. They told me not to push him in defense; his lines mature slowly. They also gave me physical things to look for to try to judge level of maturity. Of course, I have to take their opinions with a grain of salt since they bred him. OF COURSE they'll say he's great. But, I have heard others say similar things about these lines. Anyway, from what I can see (untrained eye, though) his prey drives seem to be escalating. 6mos ago, he wagged his tail at squirrels. Now, if he sees on on a wire, he's trying to climb the nearest tree. I'm a total novice, but that seems like a good sign to me. Please do tell me who trained your dog in a PM. I'd like to get a few names/opinions.

Something I missed in an earlier post: The term 'survival' and tapping into it was mentioned with regard to defense. I believe the quote was "...it will come back to haunt you." Could someone elaborate? "Survival" was a word that was used often when the trainer was working my dog in defense. I left when he wanted to put him on a table and "work him in survival mode; he needs to believe he's fighting for his life." Didn't happen-I was fighting to get to the door. How detrimental is this in the longrun???

No pun intended Jenni but Run Forrest Run!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Stay away from trainers who like defense tables.... 99% of those using them don't know what they are doing with it.

That's what I did-now I want to know how much it hurt my dog. He was never on a table, but the trainer said he had tried to make him "think he's fighting for his life." Never once even mentioned prey drive. This is my first GSD, and I got exactly what I wanted (at the time I bought him)-a nice, handsome dog with a low chance of HD. The whole protection thing came up later-not going to go into that. Anyway, I used to have a fearless puppy, and now I have an adolescent/adult who just tonight, ran under my desk because a strange man walked into my office. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I'm not blaming all of it on the trainer, but let's face it, I lived with the dog before, and I live with him now, and he's worse. I'm just a Realtor, but even I can see that!