My dog used a choker for 2.5 months and he doesn't seem to have had any negative effects from it, like I've mentioned before - I wish I could do it over again, but he's an awesome dog and we have a close bond so I don't think it's something I should regret as much as I do. But I don't think 1 day of use with a choker is going to cause serious problems with your dog - there's dog's out there that go all their lives with a choker and no problems.

I have trained dogs and never once had a pinch on them. They competed in O.B. and did just fine. I think a pinch on a 5 month old dog means you are not really getting it. I don't mean people that have never had a dog. I mean the "trainers" that tell them this crap. So I guess before I lose it over people that tell people to put pinch collars on puppies, or for that matter e-collars. you can train a pet without a pinch collar.

A puppy can be taught without a reliable source of correction not immediatly associated with the handler. A puppy can learn many things without an negative associations of any kind.

But can the same dog be trained to perform that skill in a stressful/distracting situation without the use of any correction?

I have never seen it done.

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Is there any such thing as a dog who shouldn't use a prong collar for training (due to his personality etc)? If so, could you explain why?

Obviously dogs can be trained without a pinch&ecollar, but that wasn't the question. Furthermore, a pinch collar is NOT a punishment tool any more than any other collar. There is NO HARM done to a pup that wears a pinch...if the HANDLER or "trainer" does not take frustration out on the dog.

In your case, Jeff, by using mostly PR with your dogs, you demonstrate patience, which is a virtue sadly lacking in many in the dog community.

Having said that...I do not think there is ONE SINGLE "trainer" in the world that has finished a protection dog...MWD, PSD, PPD or sport, without some compulsion from the collar...even if it's a flat one...and a correction from a prong will likely be less impactful than with a collar that uses direct pressure.

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I suppose a soft dog would do well on a small-sized prong with light corrections

I use large prongs on what you call soft dogs - because there are fewer spots being pinched (personal theory) and very gentle tugs - slow constrict then release - rather than "pops" or the extreme "BAM" as I describe in posts regarding aggression and life/death training issues.

I use the smallest prongs available (not the mini-micro though) for truly difficult dogs. They give a tighter pinch, more contact points and they look impressive to the pet owner, especially when coupled with a cat lead.

I think we agree that a dog shutting down due to an unpleasant or unfamiliar stimulus can be avoided by careful monitoring of the dog's state of mind and careful balance of positive and negative stimuli.

P.S. Boarding kennel or training kennel?

Ever watched Frazier? How about the dog acts that come around every so often? I don't recall those trainers working thru compulsion. I am not talking about ppd I am talking about pets. We had the other day a discussion here on correcting while training tricks and a member talked about how his Lab did them reliably and every time without a correction. A conditioned response takes longer to achieve and 90% of the trainers out there don't have what it takes to train like that. Again I am not talking any of the bite stuff just pets, and not all pets.

Actually, any of the conditioned responses can be overcome and become unreliable by a strong enough distraction.
The reason that so much bite work obedience is done with compulsion is just that the dogs are in a state of extreme distraction during that phase of work.

Just my two cents worth....

for your average pet i don't think their is any need for correction or compulsion. clicker and other PR methods work great.

now then if you are going to compete *either akc or any of the european OB trial(not bite work)* your going to have to use some form of correction to teach the the dog to obey the command period.

because in a trial you do not have time to take takes until the dog gets it right.

and of coarse bite work is its own game and evan the most possitive reinforcement people on the planet will tell you that bite work has to have some kind of true complusion to work.


also to the origanal poster yes there are dog out there that do not need a prong. i have trained 2 so far that are that way. it is kinda wierd to have a dog react strongly to a "NO" as my "pet" does to a strong correction.

the way i train is i try every method i am familier with to train something and then if all else fails bring out the prong or also to fine tune something.

the prong is just a tool and needs to be respected as such nobodies training methods should revolve around one training tool but several tools and methods.

to me a prong is used to "fine tune" a desired behavior after already being taught it of coarse.

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for your average pet i don't think their is any need for correction or compulsion. clicker and other PR methods work great.

It is my opinion based on working with rescue and vet and seeing many dogs die because the owner was not willing to actualy train the dog. I feel very strongly about this.

A) If the training prevents or corrects a life-threatening situation, by all means use any necessary humane compulsion. (Humane relative to death.) I do not condone any cruel training practices or ANY COMPULSION OR CORRECTION MADE IN ANGER OR FRUSTRATION.

Training with compulsion does not equal an unpleasant training session. In any training, the dog must be kept in a positive state of mind through monitoring, praise, massage, relaxation holds in small dogs and pups and, if necessary, rewards and/or treats.

I define training commands in this group loosely as sit stay, down stay, come and recall, leave it, emergency down (so valuable!) and off for an average large housepet.

An example, I have been working on offleash "come" outdoors with Kelly. There was a feral cat in the yard. Kelly sit stayed well, but on the come broke her focus. I picked up leash as soon as I saw her eyes flicker past me to where the cat was. As she came closer to me, she picked up speed (she didn't know I had the leash) I gave her enough leash to complete the come, and no more. She hit the end of the leash with so much force she spun around to my left side into a sit, for which she was praised profusely. She never knew I had the leash, all she knows is that she went to play with the cat and couldn't, ended up where she was suppossed to be and got praised.

This sequence is on video. dramatic? yes. Effective? Yes. Was she cowered? fearful? timid? No. On the next come immediately after, she saw the same cat, twitched and completed the task without breaking her focus. The day after there were 2 feral cats in the yard, she ignored them completely - there has been no cat chasing.
Lifesaving? Absolutely. Feral animals carry rabies and run across roads. I can give one correction, or end up with a sick and dying dog, or a smushed and dying dog.

B) Now on the issue of trick training; baiting, shaping, chaining, clicker is great. If the training is for a matter that is optional, or not relating to a lifethreatening situation, I feel there is no need for compulsion. 90% is good enough. Mistakes in trick training are cute too.

Mistakes that end up with dead dog - not so cute.

I disagree that a prong does not need to be used on most dogs. This is where it is most important--basic obedience. There is always something a dog wants to do more than it wants food or wants to please you.
Here's what can happen--there's a behaviorist here in CA (who actually has credentials) who trains Malamutes. Malamutes are a difficult breed, and she did very well with purely positive training. One dog, who had done very well in Novice and Open, refused to come during the Utility trial. Stood, looked at the handler, and turned to trot the other way. Clearly, the woman was a good trainer. But the dog was not proofed, and made a decision not to come. In that case it didn't matter, but using just positive methods on most dogs can lead to a false sense of security. This means your dog chases a squirrel across the street. I used Halties and clickers and treats to initially train my dog, and it DID run across the street. I was very lucky, and I use a prong now.