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But again I disagree about having the K9 off leash all the time no matter how good the dogs training is . I think it's a recipe for disaster .

Jim I think we've used this topic up, at least I have. I think that being on leash all the time is the same recipe. We agree in lots of other places so I can agree to disagree on this point.

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But again I disagree about having the K9 off leash all the time no matter how good the dogs training is . I think it's a recipe for disaster .

Jim I think we've used this topic up, at least I have. I think that being on leash all the time is the same recipe. We agree in lots of other places so I can agree to disagree on this point.

You all know the saying, "No two trainers will agree on everything and most times nothing". However, what shows character and is the people I seek out to know are the ones who can respect (and honestly mean it) others methods. Our individual experiences shape everything about us and dog training is no different. I almost like to see two trainers respectfully disagree than always agree. (You get to see more than one option at play). Good writting guys <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
~CHRIS D

Chris,

Good call. And to think, all this started because I disagreed with you <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Lou,
For the record...I do buiding and area searches off lead, but the suspicious persons stops leave the dog in the car. One item in our SOP that will get us kicked out of the unit is if we use the dog in a threatening manner. Nowadays, even scumbags have the Cajones to complain that we threatened them because we might have had the dog out for no apparent reason. Too many complaints like that and its seeya. Perps know this and make false claims every opportunity they get. A politically motivated command staff will have no problem putting me on the chopping block. Life in y2k, incredible!

Howard

Though it got a bit off topic it turned into a much better conversation . Thanks guys . I'm stuck training Drug Dogs right now and itching to get back out on the streets . Any conversation about Patrol K9 work is a good conversation right now .

Warning: Only tangentially related to the subject of training dogs! Howard as a supervisor, before I left, it was my job to do investigations of personnel complaints. (No special bureau or group did these, the individual officer's first line supervisor did them and I fielded as many as I could.

I got calls from people who felt threatened because the officer shined his light into their cars or into their eyes. No complaint was taken. I got calls from people who felt threatened because as the officer spoke with them he rested his hand on his gun or his baton. No complaint was taken. I got calls from people who felt threatened because the police dog barked at them from the back seat of the car. No complaint was taken. I got calls from people who felt threatened because the police officer took the dog out of the car and kept him by his side while another officer searched their car. No complaint was taken. I got a complaint from a woman who saw a police car hit a bird that flew in front of it. She didn't like that the officer "smiled" as the car impacted the bird. No complaint was taken. I got one complaint from a woman who told me that the officer had kidnapped her, taken her to his spaceship, cut off her head, examined her brain, probed her anally (of course) replaced her brain, sewn her head back on and transported her back to her car; where he gave her a citation for speeding. No complaint was taken, but I did ask the officer if he found anything in her brain!

You don't leave your gun, baton or OC in the car when you get out to talk to a suspicious person and people have come to realize that you carry these things as a matter of course. If you make a habit of bringing a properly selected, trained and handled dog along as well, they'll get used to this too. If the circumstances are right, neither should you leave your dog in the car.

Complaints, both real and imagined, are a cost of doing business and your supervisors should realize that sometimes people are going to feel threatened because the officer felt a bit insecure because of something they did. Just as we endure complaints, they endure having our guns pointed at them, our dogs barking at them, or being questioned as if they'd committed a crime sometimes when they just happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. It's their cost of living in a safe society. (Of course, safety is an illusion).

If your supervisors will take a complaint from a citizen because you removed your gun from your holster, your dog from the car, or you shined your flashlight into someone's eyes, when it was justified, they need to be retrained or perhaps restrained. You shouldn't have to work under the shadow of someone who's too stupid to figure this out or too lazy to do his job. Perhaps the lawyers from your Police Officer's Association could assist in this endeavor. If you were justified in having the dog by your side instead of in the back seat then no complaint should be taken no matter how many times people want to complain. I realize that times have changed and supervisors have to listen to people complain about all sorts of nonsense when we used to just hang up on the idiots. But this is why they get the big bucks.

Sorry for the rant. I couldn't stop my self. Idiots who make unjustified, false or frivolous personnel complaints really piss me off.

I have gotten through many cold nights with only my hatred of stupid people to keep me warm. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

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I got one complaint from a woman who told me that the officer had kidnapped her, taken her to his spaceship, cut off her head, examined her brain, probed her anally (of course) replaced her brain, sewn her head back on and transported her back to her car; where he gave her a citation for speeding. No complaint was taken, but I did ask the officer if he found anything in her brain!

See now Lou, if I was in the same situation I don't think I would have the restraint not to say, "You remember that? Dammit now we have to kill you."

Just so that you have some amunition if people complain that having the dog out is threatening (as in common law assault) a case out of CO had the court rule otherwise. Navratil vs. Parker is the case. Which states something like, the mere presence of a police service dog does not give rise to a claim of assault.

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For the record...I do buiding and area searches off lead, but the suspicious persons stops leave the dog in the car. One item in our SOP that will get us kicked out of the unit is if we use the dog in a threatening manner. Nowadays, even scumbags have the Cajones to complain that we threatened them because we might have had the dog out for no apparent reason. Too many complaints like that and its seeya. Perps know this and make false claims every opportunity they get. A politically motivated command staff will have no problem putting me on the chopping block. Life in y2k, incredible!

Howard

Kevin , that's a good case to be aware of . Thanks .

Howard makes a good point also about political motivations in police work and police K9 work in general . I don't know of any Police Department that doesn't cater to political agendas to some degree or another . This was not a factor in my disagreement about always having a K9 off-leash . But it sure is another factor some Police K9 Handlers have to deal with .


Many law enforcement agencies set limits then (some official and some unofficial) on how K9's are to be used to limit complaints not matter if those complaints are unfounded or not . The media has a field day with these types of complaints and manipulates it for better ratings . Any K9 Handler that bucks that adminstration's wishes on that will find themselves Ex-K9 Handlers no matter how well that officer can justify his actions .

Lou , you're preaching to the choir . I wish more law enforcement adminstrations were like yours and had a boss like you were . Unfortunately they are not .

Lou,

Bravo..excellent rant. One that will go directly to my Sgt whom I had a discussion with tonight about this very topic.

A little info on what I'm dealing with. We have an extremely effective road officer who does drug interdiction. So effective he almost single-handedly shut down drug activity in the south end of our city. After about 40 complaints from drug dealers, their families friends and spouses, he was BANNED from all major drug areas of the city. When that didn't work, and he found drug arrests in other parts of the city they put him on the beachside to coddle the rich people. This guy knows every drug player by sight and yet he is forbidden to help less knowledgeable officers investigate or identify a dealer when he is obviously lying to the police. The pressure of the aforementioned via complaints, and a few certain "Coalitions" pretty much destroyed this good cop. This is what I'm talking about.

We're going to need a new chief in a couple years. Wanna apply? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Way off topic, I know

Howard