Jeff stated;

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I have had two dominant males that stayed on the opposite sides of the room. I don't let my dogs decide. I decide what goes on in my household.

Jeff , you have described a way to control 2 dominant dogs and that is by you becoming the dominant 1 . It doesn't answer my question though .

To support your belief that dog aggression comes out of insecurity ;

How do you see 2 confident yet dominant dogs establishing dominance between them ?

Something else to think about.

Quote:So in my opinion dog aggression is 99% a handler problem. This means handlers propagate it by not correcting their dogs firmly enough. The fact is that one good correction is worth 1000 nagging corrections - most owners are naggers.

I have owned some nasty dogs in my life. I own a male right now that is as bad as anything I have ever seen - probably worse than anything most people will ever see in their life (I bought him when he was 5 years old). This dog will viscously try and attack another dog through a fence when I let him out of the kennel. This is going to blow the minds of the Goody-two-shoes and the phooo phooo Halty and Clicker people that read my web site - but I have stopped this dog’s fence fighting. It took three 30 second training sessions. I simply told him “NO” and hit him over the head with a kennel shovel. The reason it took three sessions was because I did not know how thick this dog’s head was - I really had to whack him hard on the third session to get his attention. Now he knows that there are consequences to fence fighting.

I will also say that I took a chance when I hit this dog with a shovel that he would turn that aggression towards me and attack me. I know that no dog is ever going to get me when I have a shovel in my hands - that is probably not the case with most people. But then most people would never own this dog.

The next step on the this dog would be to muzzle him, put him on a leash, get the shovel out so he could see it and let him out with a bitch that is not dog aggressive. This may take a few sessions with different dogs.

This was written by Ed. I am not the only extremest. Plus you are not allowed to get mad. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

I think it would be extremely rare for this to occur. If it did, would you freak out if nothing happened? These are domesticated animals. Nothing to prove, no reason to fight.

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I simply told him “NO” and hit him over the head with a kennel shovel...

First of all, I'm the first one to admit that there are some dogs that need corrections that are FAR beyond what most people would be willing/able to dish out. There are some dogs that need to fear you a little before they will respect you. But aren't there safer ways of doing this? Ed's process of choking out a severely aggressive dog seems to be a reasonable option. But smacking him in the head with a shovel? God help the poor guy that has to use a shovel to dig a whole in the same vicinity as that dog in the future.

Jeff - your statement of "These are domesticated animals. Nothing to prove, no reason to fight. " pretty much says it all concerning what your experience is on pack behavior amounts to.

I can’t find where I wrote the above on my web site. Send it to me in a PM.

I do remember the dog though. I had him out one day in the front yard of my kennel. One of my kennel employees accidentally let Gabby (my 10 year old retired narcotics dog out the front door)

This dog took one look and attacked her. He had her pinned to the ground by the throat. (OBVIOUSLY IN FEAR OF MY OLD FEMALE BLACK LAB WHO WOULD NOT HURT A FLEA)

Nothing I could do would get him off her. I made the decision that I would kill this dog right there rather than let him kill Gabby.

She and I had worked on the sheriff's department for 7 years. She was not going to go that way. So the shovel was there. I entered the fight with the intentions of killing the dog. He chose to stop after more hits than I could count. When he finally staggered off he turned and thought about having a piece of me but wisely decided not to.

That one session showed me how tough dogs heads were - I only hit him in the head because I had to get him off her throat she had passed out and there was not much time. It took three sessions with the shovel and he chose to live his life in a different manner – at least while he was at my kennel.

This was a truly dangerous dog aggressive dog. This also took place before I started using remote trainers to solve this problem. Today I am reasonably sure I could have solved this dogs issue in a better way with a e-collar.

With all this said - this was just one dog and one incident that makes up 30 years of experience - some good - some bad but all being educational.

What the dogs have to prove is which dog is dominant...I am one of those goody two shoes who never wants to own a dog like that. I guess I wonder how you know how hard you should hit the dog with the shovel and how do you get close enough to an aggressive dog to choke it...and how do you put a muzzle on an aggressive dog without getting bitten...But like I said I don't want to own a dominant aggressive dog


ED's answers to Karens Questions:

These are all questions I am answering in my DVD I am editing right now on Dealing with Dominant and Aggresive dogs (minus the shovel work though - that would really get Petas attention - fact is I would like to have introduced that dog to a few Peta members)

QuoteOBVIOUSLY IN FEAR OF MY OLD FEMALE BLACK LAB WHO WOULD NOT HURT A FLEA)
I don't think that dog aggression is a reasonable state of mind. I also don't think anyone here has a complete handle on dog behavior. I am filling in the blanks as I go, as you guys are.

Quote:What the dogs have to prove is which dog is dominant

But having to prove is insecurity. Insecurity is fear based.

Maybe the dog wants to prove it's dominance because it has a high sex drive and wants priority with the first available female. Or he's selfish and wants first pick of all available toys. Or maybe he wants your affection and doesn't want the other dogs getting in the way when you're around. Or maybe he just enjoys being a tough guy and beating up on other animals. Some dominance may be related to insecurity. But domesticated or not, there are still plenty of perks to being top dog.

Chiming in very late to this discussion, I have had the experience of living for years with two dogs who would literally fight to the death if they got the chance. My male Dobe Odin and his son Cato (both of whom we have lost in the last month) were this way for about the last half of their lives. For a long time (6-7 years) Odin was dominant but not domineeringly so, and he and Cato got along just great. When my Dad died, we had to go out of town. At that time, we had the two male Dobes, two female Dobes, and a female GSD/Great Dane mix. Rather than leave everyone outside for two days unwatched, I chose to leave Cato and Cleo (the mix) at home for security's sake and board the others. From the moment we got home, Cato set about trying to prove he was now boss. Obviously, this went over with Odin like a lead balloon. Result=Fight like there was no choice but to win or die. Being pretty equally matched (both at 85-90 pounds) once it started, it took nearly a horse team to get them separated. I already knew the hitting in the head was a waste of time; having seen a Rotty shot in the face with a .38, point blank, muzzle burned to a crisp, and the bullet only lodged in the bone beneath his eye. The hose routine didn't work either, you could literally have drowned both of them (and I nearly did) before they would give up. Obviously "fear" was NOT a factor here. They both wanted top spot, neither would budge, and they were physically matched enough that neither could defeat the other. At least, not without us standing there to see who would wear out over a half-hour, 45 minutes, and see who survived. Neither of these dogs was the least bit aggressive to other dogs out of our yard. I worked as a vet tech most of their lives and they made constant trips to the clinic with me. Both went to the obedience training club, city parks (when large public events were going on), and walks everywhere. Cato ignored other dogs 100%, Odin couldn't resist puppies to nuzzle and knock over with his snout in fun. There was no fear involved on the part of either dog in any way. We chose to adapt to the situation ourselves. Cato was crated in the house, then Odin let out. Odin was brought in and crated, and Cato was let out. It may have been possible for us to modify their behavior with a ton of effort and time, but in our case, why? There was no problem with either dogs' public behavior and no problems with any of the girls. Even after my husband found a little teeny 6# male dog that we kept, neither ever showed the slightest aggression towards him,(or our cats). In closing, I would just say that dog-on-dog aggression can have nearly as many causes as there are dogs. From observation over the years and dealing with clients multi-dog problems, I see dominance as being far more of a factor than fear. Looking forward to seeing Ed's new DVD and hoping I never need it! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />