Most 8 week old puppies have trouble climbing up STAIRS, not peeing in the house and sleeping without their littermates, much less swimming across rivers. And running through smoke. And then flames. And then engaging a bad guy. And then...

As someone else pointed out, I too see where this thread is going.

In Before The Lock! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

"In Before The Lock!"

Yep, ADMIN has been contacted and this will be shut down ASAP.

For the new posters, any thread discussing Baden dogs or the Dogmen get locked immediately. We don't need their delusional followers returning to this forum and trolling, as they wasted way too much of everyone's time years ago here.
We talk about facts and dog training on this forum, not fantasy and BS.

Just so ya'll know why several of us are groaning over the direction that this thread started taking...

Lets just ignore the idiot and continue with the thread.


I'm going to post in response to some comments made about helpers and defense.

I don't agree that it is only the helper's presence that will illicit defensive behaviors. Environment and/or props can affect defensive thresholds for dogs. That's why you see them in some sport trials and training.

It isn't really beneficial to encourage defensive behaviors that are being shown due to circumstances other than the decoy's actions, but they will affect dogs.

If you have a young dog who is a strong dog that doesn't offer a lot of defensive behaviors, one of the best ways to start to illicit them is to take that dog out to an unfamiliar area. . .maybe even at night. . .and do some civil work using a decoy the dog has never seen. It's a safe way to encourage some of those behaviors without having to poor on the pressure in a bite training session with a young adult.

Generally, the more unfamiliar the environment, the more unfamiliar a decoy is to the dog, and the more unfamiliar the dog is in a new situation, the lower the dogs defensive threshold will be.

I also think that it's a little silly to say that a familiar decoy is going to illicit the same response in a dog that a totally new decoy will in a new situation. I don't care how good a decoy you are or how serious the dog takes the threat, once the dog gains some confidence over that person in the form of winning in a training situation. . .that confidence will carry over to future meetings. . . .especially if it is a decoy that the dog trains with often. . . . double especially if it is a training decoy that has worked the dog with the goal of building that dog's abilities. The dog's not only kicked his butt once or twice, but on an everyday basis. LOL

That's one of the primary reasons that dogs should be judged under unfamiliar decoys and in unfamiliar environments, the dog's response in new situations is more telling of their character than in familiar situations.

VC,

In retrospect, perhaps I worded my posts incorrectly. I agree with you that the dog CAN develope a familiarity with its primary helper (and home field). I also agree that a dog may have a lower defensive threshhold with a strange helper (or strange location).

However, I feel that the helpers presense (or lack of it) has more to do with whether or not a dog will go into defense than the familiarity issue, especially if the dogs primary helper is knowledgeable and experienced and has a strong presense when necessary.

The dog may not go into defense quite as quickly with its primary helper, especially if the dog developes a certain "comfort level", but if the primary helper is good, he should still be able to put the dog into defense pretty quick.

I guess in order of importance, I would list the helper first and foremost, and the environement/familiarity issue as secondary as to what puts the dog into defense.

Hey Mike, see what you started! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

With a young dog trying to gain confidence I think there is a real benefit for that dog to train with the same helper.

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especially if it is a decoy that the dog trains with often. . . . double especially if it is a training decoy that has worked the dog with the goal of building that dog's abilities.

Robert - this makes good sense to me. Do you have any suggestions for how this type of situation? For me, a friend and I work together with our dogs - each acting as the other's helper. There are no clubs in our area and no access to experienced helpers or anyone other than ourselves. Over the course of time my dogs have become very familiar with their helper so we have started using various props. (Perhaps the perfume was a bit silly <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />. At this stage in our training we have not put much pressure on the dogs but somewhere in the future we will be ready to add pressure. Do you think the familiarity is going to be a factor, and if so, do you think props are an effective way of disguise? Or will the dog always be able to identify the helper based on scent?

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(...) elicit them is to take that dog out to an unfamiliar area. . .maybe even at night. (...)

That sounds like the approach Bernard Flinks used on Xando at the 2003 fall seminar. He was working Xando and moved the exercise into the tent where it was somewhat dark & gloomy. Of course, everyone crowded in to watch. As I recall, it created the behavior Bernard was seeking.

Thanks for continuing the thread Robert. I like your blog, keep it up. Guess the lack of helper/decoys really effects the bite sports/ K-9, PP in alot of negative ways, much more so than I first realized. good meaty thread here

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

The only smoke and fire here is what's coming out of the pipe someone is smoking.

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Did I forgot to mention that the pup I've been talking about swam across a river before engaging the decoy on the other side where fire and smoke is everywhere?

I still believe given the right genetics and proper foundation a pup can do what most adult dogs can do.

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The only smoke and fire here is what's coming out of the pipe someone is smoking.

Ha ha ha ha <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />