It never seems to fail, I think we're home free and it happens again. This time I don't necessarily think its the worst thing because about twenty hours ago I mixed a 1/4 can of CHICKEN canned dog food with her kibble and then this morning another 1/4 can. One can lasts for two feedings with 1/4 can going to each dog.

For the last 4 days or so I've been going through the other types, rabbit, venesen, beef etc. For the first time in about 5 days she showed signs of the gas pain and semi-shut down again. The only thing thats changed is we cycled through to the chicken can of food.

I suspected the Chicken treats but could the dog have a problem with chicken in general? I've never heard of such a thing but what the heck, maybe she's alergic to chicken.

Don't think I'll ever post all is well again until we've gone at least 3 weeks or more. <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

it could be a chicken allergy. but we won't know unless you feed her real, plain chicken, because up until now all the chicken you've fed her has been processed and prepared by some dog food manufacturer.

try giving her a plain raw, fresh chicken neck and see if she has a reaction to that.

i don't understand your insistence on feeding these preprocessed foods. a dog like yours is a perfect candidate for raw feeding.

also, her breed is on the list of those highly prone to bloat. you might want to talk to your vet about the advisability of getting her a gastropexy to prevent gastric torsion. they can be done laparoscopically now, and it could save her life.

I'm trying my best to deduce what is triggering this condition. I thought it was linked to the grains in the food I was originally feeding (merrick) so on the advice of folks on this board I found a food (Innova Evo) that is grain free and supposed to be made with human grade ingredients. Now after this latest (mild) reoccurance I am looking for a something isolated to the last 24 hrs that might be the cause. The chicken is the only thing that stands out as added to the diet that was not given in the last 4 to 5 days. Also the EVO kibble has a number one ingredient of Turkey and then it also has chicken. The canned EVO is 95% Chicken in the can and that is what was added.

Makes me wonder if in smaller amounts she can tolerate it but given the higher amounts the condition resurfaces.

I am thinking about switching again but to a Lamb based formula and eliminating the canned chicken altogether. If the condition completely goes away after that switch wouldn't it be a safe assumption that the chicken was the cause? I changed several things at once and we had about 5 days trouble free but because of the multiple changes its not entirely possible to determine if one or several of the changes were responsible for the improvement.

As for the natural diet, I've stated it before but for a two month period I did feed my staff's a natural diet. Chicken back, wings, some organ meat, vegetables, and supplements. Didn't see a lot of difference in the dogs but there was a huge difference in the amount of hassle for me. I care very deeply for my dogs and don't hesitate to buy super premium dog food as long as I don't have to remortgage the house to do it. I started with these two dogs using Ultra but because of the grains and other ingredients I switched to Merrick. It seemed to have all the right ingredients and the few that might not be in a natural diet were down the ingredients list. In order to help the dobe I switched to the EVO, no grains or anything else objectionable. I think the next logical step is to completely eliminate fowl of any kind, go for a month and see the results.

I also bought a dehydrator and dryed out some stew meat to use as treats. Big hit with the dogs and no chicken or any additives of any kind. I even decided to forgo the salt and am keeping it in the refrigerator.

Sounds like maybe the canned chicken, maybe even the homemade chicken strips (can't remember, does she show signs of gas after eating EVO kibble which has chicken when served with other meat type canned food?). Maybe stay away from chicken completely, unless she has no gas reaction to the EVO kibble. Also Alice's mention of bloat and the surgery is something to consider - your Dobe may have been close to bloat a few times with this gas problem, and bloat can be fatal.

Glenn I would give no chicken a shot but it does seem odd that she was able to eat the kibble fine and that has chicken as a main base.
Looks like you and I might have to give the raw prepackaged stuff a try, my boy keeps having loose stool <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I just cant figure out why, the only thing he does well on is chicken and rice mash. Im hoping it isnt Giardia.
On the bright side you can get a top load freezer cheap at home depot, I just picked one up.

gastropexy won't prevent bloat, but it does prevent torsion (no guarantees, but it seems that it is something like 97 percent reliable in preventing torsion). bloat without torsion can still kill, but it gives you more time to get to the vet, and more options if she does bloat.

something to talk to your vet about, or find a good emergency specialist and get a consultation to have your dog evaluated for the surgery. very few vets have enough experience with bloat to give you a good evaluation, so consulting a specialist in emergency, surgery, or internal medicine would be the way to decide.

I'm switching to a duck/sweetpotato based food. There is a pet food store locally to me that only sells foods that are all natural and use human grade ingredients. The owner really seemed knowledgeable and after describing the situation she suspects it is a chicken problem.

As for the EVO, the main ingredient is Turkey with chicken being the second source of protein. My therory is that in small quanitiies she is able to tolerate it without having the massive attacks. When I added the can of 95% chicken to her food it put her over the top and the attacks came back. Anyway that is the current thought, I don't think its a grain thing although I still won't give a food with corn, wheat, beet pulp or any derivitave of them.

I'm going to keep trying different foods, protein sources until I find one that works. I know a majority of the folks on this forum subscribe to the raw diet and don't know why I don't go to it as one person pointed out. If I can't find a food that works (and I'm going to be more aggressive about trying different foods)eventually I will probably try a raw diet. For me that is the last resort, its a huge hassle and I really don't want to try it again.

I really don't have any way of knowing if the evo kibble is also producing gas. I do know that even when she is not having the attacks she has wide swings in her playfullness and activity. Same time of day, same weather, same exercise, same food, and she can be lethargic to acting like a puppy. There is no rhyme or reason to it.............so perhaps she is experiencing different levels of discomfort which effect her mood and activity. I only have three markers that are obvious, she is full of energy and playful so she is feeling good, she is having attacks so she completely shuts down and then there is the situation where neither of the first two apply and she just acts lethargic. Could that be minor "discomfort" caused by the chicken levels in the EVO.........I don't know. I'm going to eliminate the chicken as see what happens.

 Quote:

I'm switching to a duck/sweetpotato based food. There is a pet food store locally to me that only sells foods that are all natural and use human grade ingredients. The owner really seemed knowledgeable and after describing the situation she suspects it is a chicken problem.

As for the EVO, the main ingredient is Turkey with chicken being the second source of protein. My therory is that in small quanitiies she is able to tolerate it without having the massive attacks. When I added the can of 95% chicken to her food it put her over the top and the attacks came back. Anyway that is the current thought, I don't think its a grain thing although I still won't give a food with corn, wheat, beet pulp or any derivitave of them.

I'm going to keep trying different foods, protein sources until I find one that works. I know a majority of the folks on this forum subscribe to the raw diet and don't know why I don't go to it as one person pointed out. If I can't find a food that works (and I'm going to be more aggressive about trying different foods)eventually I will probably try a raw diet. For me that is the last resort, its a huge hassle and I really don't want to try it again.

Duck in place of chicken if you're suspicious of chicken seems not quite different enough. They're both poultry.

I do think that staying far away from grain-heavy foods is an excellent step.

Isn't there a fish & sweet potato option? Or venison, or buffalo? (I'm just thinking of no-chicken alternatives, to help with your test of chicken.)

The lady at the store stated that she has sold the Duck based food to folks whose dogs had a problem with the chicken and there was not a problem. Her experience was that she had not seen a situation where it was a Fowl thing, it was always a chicken issue. She also operates a rescue and is affiliated with several rescue groups in addition to her customer base which from the other customers that were in the store seem to be a lot of breeders. I do realize that she is in business to sell products but she could have recommended any number of foods Because all were natural and human grade I would have taken here suggestion and given it a try. The food I bought FROMM's she said has produced great results for other customers she said have experienced what my dobie is going through. If it doesn't work I'll try something else.

I looked up the brand and the recipe. It has grains listed in five places on the ingredient list.

I understand that you're trying various alternatives and trying to find one that doesn't bother the dog. And heaven knows that I can't argue with the "poultry" thing not necessarily being a solid umbrella of terms when we talk about food sensitivity. (I had a dog test severely allergic to the dog food ingredient called "poultry mix" who was not allergic to plain fresh chicken.)

I completely understand your dedication and your frustration, too.

I just want to say again (and then I'll back off) that dogs do not have the digestive enzymes to properly process grain-heavy foods. They don't have the salivary enzyme called amylase, for example, that humans do, that starts the breakdown of grains in the system.

Individual dogs handle this ingredient differently, and yes, some dogs appear to be fine all their lives on a grain-heavy commercial food.

However, I believe, from research and studies I've read and from my own reading in the area of canine nutrition, that dogs in general are better off with little-to-no grains. If I were seeing a digestive problem, I'd first eliminate all grains, soy, and milk, because these are the ingredients that are most likely to cause the gas you're seeing (in the absence of disease, I mean).

There are foods that have no (or low) grains, soy, or milk.

BTW, chicken is indeed one of the proteins on the short list of proteins that have been identified as allergens in some food-allergic dogs. Gas is generally linked to a sensitivity more than an allergy, though, so I'd cut out the grains, soy, and milk, along with trying different protein sources. JMO.

P.S. I thought you might want to read the Tufts article that addresses the most likely causes of bloat (body type; nervous disposition; etc.). Kibble again makes the list of probable causes. There are different ideas about why: Some say that moistening the food pre-feeding can help to avoid expansion in the stomach. I'd do that with a dog having gas problems, and I read in your first post that you are doing that. Good!
http://www.vin.com/proceedings/Proceedings.plx?CID=TUFTSBG2003&PID=5091&O=Generic

I do understand that you're trying to address gas, and that bloat and gas, while connected, are not the same thing. But I thought you'd want to read about bloat, too, since your dog is the at-risk body type.