Katherine, good post. It's depressing to see what the show ring has done to setters and spaniels and I do wish you success in a dual dog. The overseas ESS vaguely reminds me of a Stabyhoun, but it's a very nice dog. I like seeing springers with tails!

 Quote: will rambeau

And some of our Show Lines members here are probably looked down on by the majority of other Show Lines people since they feel that working ability is important in their dogs ( Beth for example - if more Show Lines people had her attitude and good ethics, there would not be such a great divide between the two camps of the GSD ) .

And sorry, most of us here subscribe to the fact that breeding Show Lines to Working lines just produces a weaker dog.

Aww Will...you brought a tear to my eye! And yes you are right - I manage to P.O. a fair number of folks (well, probably a large number) in the "show line world." The way I see it, I'm just one little person with little to lose by voicing my opinion - even when that opinion is critical of the dogs I love so much. Bringing more education about a realistic view of SchH work / titles to "show line" dog owners (and other breeds too for that matter) just in my neck of the woods is a labor of love for me.

Will, I included your note about crossing show/working. Early on when I figured out the difference between the two, that was a logical thought for me too. I abandoned that notion philisophically based on the experienced info presented here.

Robbin, I too was dismayed when we bought our first Shepherd and learned of the Great Divide. All any of us can do is go about the love of our dogs and the quality of their work as honestly as we can. I do have a question for you that might have gotten lost somewhere. Have you decided on a training program for your prospective pup - whether that's basic pet obedience, or training towards any of the LONG list of capabilities the GSD breed is known for? (thank you to the poster who listed a WHOLE bunch of these)

Beth

Katherine, thanks for the links. Wow, such a difference between show & field dogs.

I enjoyed looking at the springers- had never seen a european one. I like the field versions of the sporting breeds much better than the looks of the show versions. I have heard people say that the field dogs don't even look purebred, but as a non-sporting breed person even I can recognize them for the breed they are. The split is present in any breed that still has a function. I read on here that someone felt the people crossing the show versions with the working ones were on the right track- I feel, in general, the people still breeding for the function are the ones on the right track. There is a major split in my breed, whippets, and will always be- as long as the show breeders continue to breed for extremes in conformation that are not conducive to sprinting speed. We hear the exact same things, I am laughing as read some of it- it could be any breed. We have show breeders who feel they are breeding "the golden middle", and in truth, they do get a much more functional dog when they cross with racing lines- but they could achieve even more by campaigning a pure racebred dog in the show ring. In my breed, the only dogs who HAVE achieved both a show and racing champion title are a small handful of racebred dogs, whose owners were persistant enough to show them. I have to specify "champion" title, because to appease show people and encourage their participation, "minor" titles are awarded, which have minimum requirements so that any dog could achieve them if it attends enough race meets. There is even a racing organization which bans most racebred pedigrees, so that the show bred dogs only have to run against each other to achieve a title.
As an "other breed" person, I can tell you in our circles the show gsd is thought of as the poster child for the damage breeding for the show ring can do to a dog. I do not know how anyone would think that a dog should be built, or move, like the photos and videos I've seen (sloped back, or even worse- wierd roach to the back). The old style shepherds look, to me, more like the working line dogs I see photos of. The shepherds I've dealt with, after 20 years as a vet tech in the army, did NOT look like that to me. But kudos to the show people who do work their dogs, and breed towards working ability instead of only looks and gait. The same for the whippet people who get their show dogs out to race them- eventually they see the race dog with different eyes- the awful rumors about the performance dogs they pass around amongst them selves turn out to be not quite true. Show people just have to recalibrate their eyes away from the extremes they are used to seeing.
vickie

Actually, no I haven't found which method to us. I do know that I will do extensive obedience. I would also like to do tracking but my primary idea is protection work. Don't get me wrong on this one, I don't want to po any one but I have been told on numberous occasions that sch is useless for training a dog to be a ppd. Most times the dog will only attack if there is a sleeve on. Just another one of the conundrums I seem to be facing. I would love to hear some suggestions for any of the above. I'd also like to say that looking at the pup that I am interested in, his pedigree goes way back. So far back that the pics of the dogs that are there don't even look like a modern day shepherd. I was shocked!! One of them is even commented on by Max what's his name (I always forget his name). To think that the dog has changed so much!! It looks more like a malinois to me than a german shepherd. This stuff is so confusing and yet at the same time it is pretty amazing what breeding can and can not produce! I just keep telling myself breathe, breathe...keep reading and asking questions and just breathe, lol!

Jennifer, the op asked about other breeds for protection, not herding,
AL

Sandy, you are so right. I have got to weigh in here as another GSD lover.

My experience has been with guide dog puppies. Talk about being able to think and act on their own! These dogs can navigate anywhere, whether they've been there before or not. They work crowds, traffic, surface obstacles and over-head clearances. Everything from big cracks in the sidewalk, to a car running a red light, or overhanging tree branches that would be an obstacle for their visually impaired partner.

We also worked with Labs(black and yellow), Golden Retrievers and Lab/Golden crosses. Many exhibited the ability to perform "intelligent disobedience" with regard to varying situations. They could definitely think for themselves. In fact, for a time male yellow Labs had the highest "graduation" rate.

I know of at least one well-traveled person with absolutely no sight, who gets off the plane and tells his dog, "Find the main door".

Not to hijack the thread, Ruth, is there a reason why chocolate labs seem not to be considered in guide dog work? Just curious since you specified "black and yellow".

 Quote: Al Curbow

Jennifer, the op asked about other breeds for protection, not herding,
AL

Yes... That's why my recommendation included the ACD and excluded the Border Collie. I'm not quite sure of your point?

The ironic thing is, The German SHEPHERD'S Dog was a herding breed, and so too was the Malinois at one point. Wouldn't that suggest that maybe the herding breeds (of which the ACD is one) might have the characteristics that make for a good protection dog? Sure seems so...

 Quote: jennifer ruzsa

Sandy, I don't want to get into a "pissing contest" with you or anyone... Not sure what you mean by strawman argument I wasn't arguing anything with anyone. I have my opinions, and I am entitled to them. As you are entitled to yours. It's really no big deal. We can agree to disagree. It's not about respect or disrespect to Ed or anyone. I think Ed has great dogs. I like shepherds. I also like ACD's. This thread was about dogs OTHER than GSD's. I provided my opinions, and you provided yours. I don't see where the problem is.

I'm very interested in the sites you posted, unfortunately neither link seems to work so I'm hoping you might be able to re-post or PM me if you're interested in doing so. Thanks!

Anyway, I apologize to the original poster for the hijacked thread. Get an ACD. Or don't get an ACD. LOL. It honestly doesn't matter. It was a suggesion of another potential breed to look into. Nothing more, nothing less.

Happy holidays all.

Uh-huh...
http://www.geocities.com/heartland/ranch/5093/doritsuki.html
http://www.german-shepherdherding.com/herding.htm

Strawman argument - Google it.