Cindy - as I was reading your words of advice, it was DAVE's voice I was hearing in my head!!!! Your words of advice on food (and hungry dogs!) is gospel around here for tracking. And your words of advice about HIGH levels of drive bringing out the happiest possible dog - and doing lots of that before introducing corrections applies to everything around here!!!

Scott, on Max and Dante... (and I preface this with the acknowledgement that every dog is different, everyone's goals are differnt, and there are many different methods to accomplish the goals - what is right for this dog may be completely wrong for other dogs)

When Max first brought Dante here, it was clear that Max had done a good job at what he thought was best before really learning about SchH. He had taught the basic OB commands using collar corrections. His dog was always loose in the house, so got corrected a lot around the house for all those things that dogs do to get in trouble. (jump on people, get into things they shouldn't, etc.) Dante had ready access to his favorite toys at all times. While all these things are fine for pet obedience, they take the drive right out of the dog for SchH work. Dante was over the top collar and handler sensitive. He also had not done much socializing with Dante in strange places, around groups of people so Dante was stressed just being here. He did NOTHING his first time here in response to the prey / drive work that Dave put before Dante. I mean NOTHING. All Dante did was hide behind Max. Granted, Dante probably isn't / wasn't the strongest dog to begin with which compounded the problems.

Dave was very honest with Max that he thought Dante was probably too far gone to have a hope of doing SchH work. BUT as always, Dave is willing to keep working with people who try their best and listen to him. Max was willing to keep investing the time and $$ and listen, and Dave has continued to put the same effort into training Max and Dante that he does with every team.

Max had to change up the household routine. Max had to care for Dante in a way that absolutely minimized situations requiring corrections. i.e., dog is always crated when company comes over (and more crating / boredom in general when not training) - that eliminates the dog jumping on people, and hence the need to correct for that...as one example. Max had to put away all the toys, and reserve toy play for training time - and play in a structured way (ala the Building Drive and Focus DVD). Max had to take Dante to new places to play - while carefully planning this to avoid situations that would necessitate corrections. Basically, Max and Dante had to learn to have FUN together - with Max being Dante's only source of fun for a long time.

Amazingly, each week that goes by Dante does a little better. He'll engage with Dave in prey drive for the toys. He'll play two toy with Max and be willing to leave Max, despite the number of people here, dogs barking in crates, etc. Last Saturday, we were starting the VERY basics of send out work with some of the dogs. Dave knew Dante wasn't ready exactly for that, but Dave played a modified game, where Dante actually ran up to Dave and grabbed his tug out of his hand. None of us EVER thought we would see that based on what we saw on day 1.

I realize to those here who are quite experienced, you probably would have stopped feeding that dog (well, not really - but just using that coined phrase) a long time ago. Or certainly stopped working at it, and investing in the training for such small amounts of progress week by week.

For our group here, witnessing this has taught us newbies several important things:

1) Hard work, and following the instructions to the letter of the trainer you are paying (for newbies anyway) pays off.
2) Patience pays off.
3) ENJOY THE JOURNEY with your dog - it's not about how far down the road you can get, or how fast. For us, it's about smelling the roses along the way, savoring each bit of progress no matter how small, and knowing we are learning valuable lessons every step of the way that will be valuable for potential future dogs.
4) Savor everyone else's journey in the training group as much as you savor your own.

Drive based work takes a lot longer - especially for us newbie handlers who have to work hard to get our timing and our moves right. The end picture is SO much prettier to watch. And so much for fun for dog AND handler.

I wish I had Max and Dante's journey chronicled on video. Of all the teams in training here, they would be voted least likely to ever see a SchH trial field. But in so many ways, this is the most celebrated team here. And who knows - one grain of sand at a time, they just might get there someday.

I hope this story comes out a fraction as good in writing as it has been watching it live.

Best wishes with your training!

Beth

I think you say werry mutch with great sence Cindy.

Some peopel try to push too mutch out off their dog too early inn my oppinion, let the dog be litle dog too and i think many things comes by time.
I have seen some dogs traing hard for their SCH III title at 2 year age with yank and crank metohds im questioning will that dog be a great competision dog for many year`s?

Im wounder why its so werry normal to use a E colar- in training`.
I have more and more belive inn the positiv way to train my dogs ( nerver ever used a E Colar ) and im happy about that.
I alsow train a couple of pure DDR GSD that i think many peopel would not even considder not using a E colar on.

U make your own decicion when you get your puppy and if you make the right work making a great bond to your dog yoou are mile ahead getting things work for the rest of the dogs life.

Beth et. al.,

Of all the "unknowns" for me, the biggest was what to expect from my dog, when. The breeder we bought him from gave us a basic training DVD. Using the techniques on the DVD, we taught Hans, using positive methods only, Come, Sit, Down, Crate, Wait, and Stay before he was 12 weeks old. In fact, he learned Sit in about 10 minutes when he was 9 weeks old. Boy, did this set expectations, and I'm sorry to say they were the wrong expectations.

From my own research, and experience with my dog, I've learned that some things do take time, and as the dog matures, some things come along with very little work.

For example, we taught him crate when he was very young. But if he was in the next room, we'd have to give him the command and follow him. We didn't spend any time working on that, we'd just follow him if we had to. But now, for no apparent reason, we can give him the command anywhere in the house and he jumps up and trots into his crate. Even more, we can be out in the backyard, tell him "crate", and he'll go to the door, wait for it to be opened, and go into his crate. There are other, more subtle examples that are hard for me to explain (you'd have to be here) that show me that maturity and obedience are related.

I wish I had understood this when we brought him home. But now that I do, I'm more patient with him. He's one year old, and even though he looks like a full grown GSD, he's still a puppy, or an adolescent. And just as I have to set my expectations for my kids based on their maturity level, the same is true for my dog.

One practical example of this is that when he was younger we had to crate him at dinner time. We'd leave him out, but it would become apparent that we wouldn't get any peace at the dinner table unless we put him away. We tried techniques like putting him in a down and putting a foot on his leash to hold him there. That didn't seem too productive. Then, one day shortly before Thanksgiving, we sat down at the dining room table, and he came in and laid down, without being told, and stayed there until we finished eating. He still does. Of course, when dinner is finished and we start clearing the table, his head pops up and he wants to see what is going on.

I'm rambling now. My point is that even though a puppy seems so much smarter and capable at 9 weeks, or 6 months, or 1 year, than our kids were, we have to remember that, like the kids, they need time to grow up and mature. Be patient and take your time with your training.

Hi Trond! I love making new SchH friends from different countries. My limitation is that I only speak English. I visited your web site, and tried to sign up for you guest book, but I don't think I made it all the way. That's MY language barrier problem!

You hit on an important pet peeve of mine. The RUSH for SchH titles (like SchH3) by the time a dog is 2 years old - especially true for males. While some exceptional dogs are probably fine with this, many, many dogs IMO get ruined in that process.

Mean time, I think starting positive foundation training EARLY is a huge benefit. But like you said, take your time. Solid fundamentals are important...then read the dog to figure out how and when to progress from there.

Rich, I enjoyed your post. These pups surely do learn a lot of important things early on (for better or worse). These early foundation things come back all the time - LOL either to *bite you* (literally or figuratively) if it was done wrong, or to support you and your pup's efforts down the road if you did it right. Sounds like you did a lot of things right.

Beth

Beth/Cindy:

So I've been reading a bit more about drive training since Cindy's post last night and I am not sure how far I want to go in that dimension right now. There is surprisingly little information to be had online in this area. One of the few areas left where you still have to buy your expertise, I guess.

All of Miko's training takes place prior to meal times. Being an Akita and susceptible to bloat she gets her exercise and training prior to meals. We also feed her three small meals a day for the same reason. So that's about as hungry as she is going to get short of substantially changing her feeding regimen. On formal training nights her meal time goes from 6pm to 8pm so she is even hungrier.

She has no toys--they are all "ours". However we parcel them out one at a time more in terms of a pack order thing then in creating drive. Our toy play is not well structured, but she knows "drop it" and will do so if we are not actively tugging on it.

Miko is not crated anymore although she has a crate, uses it for naps, food and for the rare occasion when we do need to secure her these days. She has the run of the house. She is doing much better about jumping on people (part of her CGC training). Now she gets excited, starts to jump but then remembers she is to sit, all by herself. It is amusing to watch. This only works with people who don't create drive right now, we are working on making it universal. She is *very* highly socialized with both dogs and people. We have made it a point to do this since day one as Akitas have a bad reputation in this area, but you could never tell with Miko!

She is a pet and companion first and foremost and from the little I have been able to read online on the subject of creating drive I suspect that *I* will be emotionally unwilling to create the conditions necessary to improve on where we are at right now. I might make her a bit hungrier (tips on feeding/training patterns would be most appreciated) and I certainly would be willing to structure her play better but I know I am unwilling to crate her. She has no problems (right now) that are associated with free run of the house. (Another reason we chose an Akita--they are typically very well behaved in this area. In fact we have had practically no damage to the house or objects at all since we got her, due in part to the early crate training as well.)

It's very interesting where this thread has gone and there's a lot of good information that has been put forth that goes well beyond my initial e-collar question. My girl is still very young as all have pointed out but that just means that now is the time to become more knowledgeable about where to take her training. She may never be one of those obedience or working champions with the iron focus on her handler and just dieing to perform her next command but I know as a team we can get better and all the information here is definitely helping me know where I need help.

My thanks to everyone who continue to contribute to the thread, I really am appreciating it greatly. I hope others are benefiting as well.

Scott

Scott, if I've understood your posts correctly, it seems that "aloof independence" is one of Miko's (typical Akita) issues when it comes to her attitude, reliability & speed on the recall -- If this is correct, then I would really recommend two things that it doesn't sound like you're doing with her now...

1) Either crate or kennel her when you're NOT home.

2) Tether her to you when you ARE home.

Kenneling & tethering are not just about housebreaking, or house wrecking -- They're also about leadership & bonding. When YOU contain & control her whereabouts, Miko will recognize YOU as alpha a lot more than she ever will if you allow her to continue making solitary & autonomous decisions for herself...

Try it & I believe you'll see a noticeable improvement in Miko focusing her attention on you & being responsiveness to your commands -- I know this works for my Akita (Shaka) who turns 2 years old tomorrow, and whose motto is, "See prey, kill prey, eat prey & damn the torpedos!", so she has TONS of drive & typical Akita temperament to spare <:-)

I knew somebody would say that, Candi You are no doubt 100% correct about the effect it would have, but everything in life is a trade-off, it will have other effects that I and my wife find unappealing and I'm going to find another way to work this problem. My wife and I definitely don't want to go that route (crate/tether), at least not yet.

Meanwhile, back in e-collar-land life continues to be interesting. Just when you think you've found your working level it continues to change! Now that she's getting the hang of it our working level is dropping, from 60 to 40 now. I only had to give her one correction today (so far) and at 45 I got vocalization for the first time. Completely unexpected.

s

Yes, "working level" is a fluid concept, and it basically means "the lowest stim level at which your dog will obey commands" (not necessarily the lowest stim that produces a blink or twitch) -- Under strong distraction, when the dog's in high drive, her working level may be way up there & she may need a short jolt of continuous rather than just a nick (NOT a gradual step-by-step increase one level at a time) AND, a dog's regular working level should be expected to drop once it gets used to being worked on a remote collar (Ed covers all this pretty clearly in his e-training video, IMHO)...

Is Miko your first Akita, Scott? Shaka is my first member of this breed, but I've trained lots of aloof & independent minded hounds over the last 50 years -- Even so, Ed & Cindy's handling AND management techniques have made all the difference in the world with my Akita's "livability" as a housepet (for example without kenneling & tethering, she becomes her OWN boss in a heartbeat & suddenly has no use for human closeness) -- I happen to appreciate typical Akita temperament, or I wouldn't keep one as my personal companion, but I also desire an attentive, obedient PET rather than just owning a "loner" hunting machine who could care less about pleasing me...

I'm far from being any kind of pro trainer & maybe I've just been extraordinarily lucky with my Akita's & my Borzoi's e-collar experience (perhaps I really lucked out in buying an Innotek IUT-300 Ultra-Smart collar) -- I don't know, but it works extremely well for me -- Shaka turns 2 years old today; will there ever come a time that I can relax her protocol, treat her like a GSD, and expect her to behave like one (???) I don't think so, LOL, because my Borzoi's 9 years old now & is still typical of his breed, God love 'em !

Anyway, everyone knows what they want from their own dogs & I'm sure you'll find a way to accomplish that in your household too, Scott <:-)

Miko is our first Akita puppy. We had another in our family some years ago that was an older male rescue. He was also a very laid back, friendly Akita, similar to Miko, but much more protective. He was the dog that made us fall in love with the breed. He was of unknown age and was only with us 4 years Then we went through a period of time where we weren't able to do justice to a dog so it was just us and the cats. In the past year things have changed and we were able to and wanted to get another dog. We tried to rescue another Akita but being far away from any of the big Akita rescue org's it was hard for us. We met a few Akitas but none of them were the right dog for us. We looked at some lab's and a few other dogs but they weren't right, either. Finally we gave up on the rescue idea and started to look for puppies and as luck would have it we found a great one (Miko!) almost immediately.

st

An update: I haven't had to give her a correction in a few days. We spend almost all our time outdoors off lead now except for walks around the neighborhood. I've been using a tug toy exclusively to up her drive. She's still got the whole Akita attitude thing going and tends to respond to the first "no" as opposed to the "come" which I know is doing nothing for her speed and drive on recall, so that's next on the list.

Any suggestions now on how to improve her speed on the recall using the collar?

Thanks,

Scott