Um, sorry... I wasn't clear... the reply was to Paul!

Its not that I don't believe in prey drive, I don't buy that you need to work a dog in prey and that is the ONLY way to build its confidence. I don't believe a dog has 20 or so drives, or if it does, what is the real relevance to protection training? Or more importantly, in my relationship with my dog? I know the conventional answer. To be honest, I now look at that list of drives and really don't care about rank drive, tracking drive, air scent drive, food drive, pack drive, combat drive, retrieve drive, herding drive, etc, etc, etc.

If there are two types of prey - serious and non-serious, then wouldn't this apply to other drives as well? If my pup were a bit slow in grabbing her food that would be non-serious food drive and if she bit me to get at it that must be serious food drive. I'm not trying to be smart, but following the logic of the two degrees of prey drive.

A dog is either serious in what its doing or its not. Bitework is serious. While I am not going to slam my pup into defense, I don't want her playing at biting either. And I think of defense as either fight or flight. Why don't you think you can build a confident dog without working in prey? Or that the dog will always turn out to be a fear biter? Or that a well-bred working (not sporting) pup doesn't have the tools for fight? Mine most certainly does, and a good trainer could develop that.

True I don't use food or toys - ever - to motivate or teach my pup. She doesn't need it. My belief - I feel I owe her more of myself than that.

Catherine--

You either aren't listening to anyone here, or you're arguing for the sake of argument. If other people want to answer your posts, fine. I am going to opt out.

Good luck.

Pete Felknor

Catherine,
You didn't answer my question, what mechanism will you employ to get your dog to bite when *appropriate*?

Richard,
I wasn't referring to NAPD or PSD trials - I have never seen one. If they are as you describe then I certainly can't say thats no way to proof your dog. I hope to see one soon.

Karmen,
No, I'm not doing bite training with my pup now. The vast majority of trainers use sport techniques and I don't want to use those on my dog. If I can't find a trainer I'm comfortable with she won't be trained in bitework. If she's not, the rest of the training is still worthwhile and its fun. Its as real as I can make it - part of the proofing is just the unexpected things that come up in everyday life in different situations.

Pete,
On the contrary, I DO listen but I don't agree. I am not arguing for argument's sake. I simply don't take something as gospel merely because most believe it to be true - the earth isn't flat, is it? There's something missing in all this. For one, if Schutzhund is supposed to be a trainability and breed worthiness test then shouldn't all titled dogs be suitable for work and not just sport? If not, then that suggests the test has some major flaws and should be reworked otherwise aren't we doing a disservice to the breed? In the past weren't all Schutzhund dogs suitable for service? Why should this have changed? It would still be fun for dog and handler if it were real. I would love to participate if it were.

Joy,
I'm not sure what you mean by 'mechanism' to bite when appropriate, but what does that have to do with me not working my pup in prey drive? When faced with a threat she will bite (and has, quite seriously) - although she'd run from a big threat because she is still a pup. You can call that prey drive if you like but I don't need 20 years of dog training experience to see whether she is serious or not.

Pete,I see what you were saying now,it was not that clear at first as to what you were getting at.Some dogs with a high prey drive will have fight drive but many do not and if there is none there,I dont believe that you can create it but this would seem to be your line of thinking also.
Paul

Catherine,I think you are missing the point,I have seen many dogs that will happily bite but when it suits them,often these dogs will not when it suits you,so unless you have done a serious evaluation of the dog for bite work,do it now and be sure,or sure enough when the chips are down it will let you down.

Paul--

Yes, that's what I was trying to get across.

I always hate anthropomorphization, but anyway here goes... say you take a kid who's a little bit fearful (not OVERLY fearful) and want to build his confidence. You teach him karate or tae-kwon-do or just good old fisticuffs--and then the next time he catches grief, he may be able to avoid a fight just because of the confidence he projects. However if push comes to shove... well, he's ready to mix it up. A lot of this newfound confidence comes from OVERCOMING and WORKING THROUGH fear.

That's why I think the toughest dogs are usually the dogs that have an accessible defensive threshhold (as opposed to the "prey monsters" that seem unable to flip into defense, no matter what). A dog that is incapable of understanding threat or fear is limited in its potential uses.

Pete Felknor

I want to go on the record saying that Peters post on August 14, 2001 05:43 PM was the best post I have read on this board to date. I bet you are one of a select few that could understand that when my dog ran me over an attacked me for the ball that this has nothing to do with fight drive at all. I also loved that even though a dog could have high prey drive with no defense or fight it is usually the dog with high prey drive that develops fight drive. Bravo!

Don't get too comfortable. I won’t hesitate to jump all over your next post.

Dogs are fun. I like to spend time with them.

Come n' get me, Vince! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />