Quote:

Your breeder, who says "she has never had a problem" hasn't got a clue and in my opinion is not considering your best interest. Get off this train now, and stick with one pup at a time.

Yup, and might I add: Scary

I think everyone here is really trying to offer some sound advice, from a huge collective of solid, hands-on experience. Nobody wants to be reading another newspaper article about someone getting hurt (or killed) by a dog, when the situation could have been easily prevented by having some patience regarding the purchase of a second dog. All the usual issues around having two pups at once apply, and are significantly magnified by the size of these dogs. If they bite someone or fight, make no mistake; it's going to be a very big and costly deal. Why anyone would willingly walk into a situation like this is beyond me.

 Quote: lisa gonzalez

... the fighting is what worries me. that's where the pack leader comes in.... i know i have to be calm and firm with them. ...

The fighting is what worries me too. You say it's a matter of being a pack leader. True. But being a pack leader isn't as easy as snapping your fingers, or just having a certain attitude, and not everyone is a natural leader, even of dogs.

You won't always be calm and firm. You'll get frustrated, and tired, and have to fight times when you'd rather just relax and have some peace. Not possible with 2 puppies. The raising of them will take most of your time. The training will take the rest of your time.

You have children to raise and train also. A home and a family to take care of. Are you home all day? You would have to be to do everything you will need to do, but 24 hours a day won't be enough (you do sleep, right?).

I was on a waiting list for a GSD pup from a breeder I respect and trust. After later being told it would be another year or 2 before getting a pup, I went with another breeder and am happy with my decision. However, the first breeder suddenly had a pup for me but I had to turn them down because I was already raising one pup. Believe me, it was one of the hardest things I had to do, and I yearned for that puppy from that respected breeder with the wonderful GSD lines. I was very sad for a couple of months, but knew I was doing the right thing. It wouldn't have been fair to either pup to have had them both, and there is no doubt in my mind that I did the right thing.

This isn't about you and what you want, it's about the pups and what is best for them.

Again, it's about the pups and what's best for them. If you love dogs, you'll think long and hard about that.

Lisa, I wont even go into the raising two puppy issue since you asked and many people have given you some good advice on previous posts here. I dont know how much experience you have with this breed but I can tell you this much:

My Grandfather and most of his family in Cuba had Perro de Presa Canario Dogs that came from direct lines from the Canary Islands and from Spain. According to him most of these dogs in the early years were introduced to the island by ships in their port of call and people would not DARE go near one of these dogs tied out on the dock or a ship protecting the cargo. And of course, these dogs were bred for fighting and were very much bred to do just that as it was "Sport" in that era.

I think the Presa is an incredibly intimidating breed and is tenacious at going after anyone that it percieves as a threat to itself or its family. Most of them are incredibly loyal to their family and would die protecting them. You better be prepared to crate these dogs up when company comes over or anyone else for that matter, as some of the more aggresive males can snap over just being looked at the wrong way. I did that ONE TIME with a Presa and thank God there was a gate between us or he would have ate me. I have never really seen what I thought was a good Presa with a Clear head and good nerves. I am sure they are out there but I have never seen one.

Even my Grandfather owning these dogs for 40 years would say that these dogs would not be suitable for most people nor are they comparable to the overall qualities of a good German Shephered Dog or Malinois,period. One of his dogs went after a laborer doing yard work on his property and the dog tore his ear off and he needed over 100 stitches to close his wounds. The man did nothing, and had to climb a tree to escape death. That ended his involvement in Presas as he had to pay a lot of money for this incident. I think that poor nerves have always been an issue in most of these dogs that I have seen in Florida and we have a LOT of them.

Also, think about the possibility that when raising two puppies (Both Males?) you are going to have some rank issues that will be dealt with in a way that will be brutal and could result in injury or death, this is not unheard of as Presas are known to be dog aggresive besides making them "Doggy". Are you a strong enough Pack Leader for all this?

I wish you luck, but for me it would be a no-go. When I see a line of Presas that can cut it as Patrol Dogs (And I dont think it will ever happen) then I will change my mind.

Art

This is my first post here,(it takes a while to read "everything" on this board) Lisa, you may be taken somewhat aback by the responses you have received. People on this board can be somewhat elitist and condescending when it comes to dogs, but it clearly comes from a good place. You will not find people who care more for raising and living with healthy well adjusted dogs than the people on this board. That being said your post and subsequent posts have been ridiculous.

You begin by asking for advice, which by definition is a recommendation for a decision or course of conduct. Then you said you just wanted advice, not for someone to make a decision for you. Well that is precisely what advice is, someone presuming or being invited to contribute to your decision making process. It is hard to tell, with your complete disregard for spelling and punctuation, if you and your post are legitimate. Additionally, you appear to have read this site and Ed's articles, yet you have posted what you have? It's like asking this board what muzzle you should buy for your dysplastic albino GSD to keep her from biting anybody that comes near her cage to feed her Ol' Roy dog food. Oh yeah, you want some breeding advice too!!

Look, you got sound advice. Even if you didn't like the tone or content, the advice was sound. Maybe you should find a Presa Canario site so you can commiserate with other PC owners and we do not have to witness the train wreck.

Jason


P.S. Where do you live? I won't have to chase ambulances anymore, In a year, I will just wait in your neighborhood and make money of the dog bite cases...Good luck.

finally someone with hands on experience with a presa! you have expressed yourself well. you have a knowledge yet you don't make yourself sound like a know it all. i am familiar with this breed because we had one for 7 years. their were many times he would chase that fence but he never stepped out of the fence until the stranger would step into our property. i'm taking different steps now when it comes to two of them at the same time. honestly, i still need to make my final decision. their's a lot i'm taking into consederation. but i will deal with that on my own. our presa was great. he was very territorial at home but when we were out of pur home he was the most timid, friendly dog i've ever seen. he was great with our kids and others as long as we would let them in first. you could even take the food out of his mouth without an ounce of fear he would turn on you.
if i go with this i will be getting one of each. they with be fixed etc. we were great pack leaders before we can do our best to be it again. but i understand that two is different than one that's why before i make my final decision i will not leave any room for doubt. because of the breed and the number of them that i would be taking on at once.

 Quote: jasonleonard

It's like asking this board what muzzle you should buy for your dysplastic albino GSD to keep her from biting anybody that comes near her cage to feed her Ol' Roy dog food. Oh yeah, you want some breeding advice too!!

I know I said I would not post on this thread again, but I have to say "thanks for the chuckle".....that was funny.

Lisa, I can see that you are one who is wise in their own eyes, and rejects the counsel of many.

Whatever.

It's not worth the effort.

to each it's own... that's as much as your going to get out of me

 Quote: lisa gonzalez

to each it's own... that's as much as your going to get out of me

Can a moderator please CLOSE this thread?????
Obviously she wants us to tell her to go ahead and get two pups of a breed that has been in the news media for KILLING people because they were not raised correctly.

She came here for advice and now has an attitude that needs to move on from here.

Personally, I am starting to think that this is a bogus post therefore it is getting redundant and I have a feeling I am not the only one getting frustrated and fed up.

WHERE IS ED when you need him??????????????????????????

Hello Lisa:

My reply is not breed specific. It relates to critical periods of social development among puppies. A number of the studies involved both early and late removal of puppies both from the mother, and/or other littermates.

A number of studies indicate that puppies removed late from littermates never achieve bonding with a handler necessary for good canine "work." It would stand to reason that two puppies who never are separated from each other will have a very strong bond, and the development of the bond with the handler will be inhibited. Experience backs up this theory. This applies to all dogs.

I can recall growing up with sled dogs in the 1980s. One pair was a father and his daughter, who if off lead together could disappear together for days. Some would say this is a sled dog issue: in my view, no way, it is a socialization issue that arose because these dogs were raised together in an Alaska sled racing kennel, with lots of dog bonding, and a different sort of canine/human socialization.

I can tell you that if I ever put together a skijor three dog team, I will stagger the acquisition of pups, and they will all come from different dams. They will be raised and trained in separate kennels with limited group dynamics until they are of the age to run together on a team. These will also be dogs in which dog-on-dog aggression is actively selected against. They will weigh about 50-60 lbs. and have a great deal of pointer blood in them, and be very human friendly dogs.

I have two dogs: a cattle dog (male, age 8) and a beauceron (female, age 4). I have much, much better control of one at a time. In addition, inhibitions toward aggression disappear with two dogs: in particular dog aggression in my case. I rarely walk both on lead at once.

I can't imagine in my wildest dreams being able to safely walk two presa canarios together on lead in any place where other dogs might be, in particular dogs off lead.

I also live on 12 acres with an additional unlimited "back 40".

On breed specific issues: like my cattle dog, I suspect a presa canario is a breed with a high level of natural aggression and a "light trigger."

Listen to your head, Lisa, not your heart. If you've made commitments to a breeder or family, break them. One pup.

rgds, andrew may