Quote: Michael West

Howard,

I agree Johan has given me some great answers. And like i said you are far better with words then i, i never meant to be argumentative. I pretty much had the same questions as you did but i just didn't get them out the right way.

After writing about a gazillion case reports you're bound to learn something :-)

Howard

im just impatient :-D

 Quote: Howard Knauf

Hi Johan,

Just to clarify....Throughout the dogs' training career he is given a correction via choke or pinch collar. The dog should associate the command with the neck correction from the handler. Why is it the dog beleives the decoy is fighting him when a correction is given from the handler? Is the dog so hard that he loses all focus as well as respect for the handler?

And if the dog is that hard, to me it would seem that the belly band is meant to cause pain

When these corrections are given with the handler at his side he'll know it comes from him. If they are given with a long line( i'm talking about these extreme dogs) they will tend to believe the correction is given by the nearest thing eg the decoy; and they don't accept a correction from that guy. so they go for it. The waist or tailband is used to remind the dog that someone behind him, the handler can still touch him. It is not the level of stimuli that is importent but getting trough his drives and make him listen to what the handler wants and this with the lowest possible level.

 Quote: Howard Knauf

Please correct me if I'm mistaken. Also, why is it the dog performs flawlessly in competition without the band? It would seem that if the control is there on the field the handler/trainer has figured out how to do the job without the band.

This is the difference between a dog in training and a fully trained dog. On training depending on the dog even a trained dog may need an e-collar

 Quote: Howard Knauf

If that is the case, then the only reason I can see for using it in training is if there is extreme pressure put on the dog to get him to fight harder. And the question then begs...does not the decoy in the ring pressure the dog as much as the decoy out of the ring? If he doesn't, then why not? Part of the attraction is a hard dog when competing.

Training is ment to prepare the dog and we tend to go to the limits On the field during trails you feel the dog growing and at the end it is sometimes a battle for controle by sheer impossing you're will without any available tools. At those moments you wished you had an e-collar or something. Sometimes the dog grows so much that thehandler looses controle and the dog won't out. Happens sometimes. On the other hand these are the dogs you want at your side when in trouble. They won't back off

 Quote: Howard Knauf

On its face the belly band looks abusive. I dont know the level of stim or am educated enough to condemn its use. Here you are the tutor and I am the student. Thank you for any replies.

Howard

Depends on the level of stimuli. My dog reacts to the e-collar as if he's sitting on an electric chair even with stimuli's i hardly feel. So i've to be very cautious with the settings i use, even changing them during training if my dog gets wet or something.

Hope this was clear

Greetings

Johan

Hi,

I'm understanding the extreme pressure in training. Everyone wants a dog to go through fire for them. But shouldn't the dog, as it grows stronger through training, also be in control during those growing times? It seems that a well balanced dog should at least listen to the handlers' commands no matter how driven he is. In a perfect world thats how it should be done. (Pipe dream, I know)
I've seen many a patrol dog who gets tunnel vision in the fight and tunes out the handler so I'm not completely ignorant to the fact that it happens.

The dog has learned that the command "out" means out. If the dog does not out then a penalty is to be paid. Is the belly band used (stimmed)in every aggression training period or only if the dog does not obey? I know these are extreme dogs with extreme drive so I'm not lost in that aspect.

Reference the comment about the dog growing strong during the protection phase....In your opinion, is the dog actually growing stronger or has he really become collar-wise and now knows there is no way for the handler to enforce his commands? An embarrassing moment for the handler no matter why the dog does it, I'm sure.

Thanks for the response.

Howard

Part of training is to get a dog that even when he is in totaly focussed and lost in his drives will repond to commands given by the handler. A weaker dog will crumble. The stronger the dog to more dificult it is to get to him when he is all wired up and doning what he loves to do the most = biting.

Greetings

Johan

 Quote: Johan Engelen

The stronger the dog to more dificult it is to get to him when he is all wired up and doning what he loves to do the most = biting.

Greetings

Johan

I agree with this. But in the PSD world there are strong dogs as well. They are required to out on command with no interuption by the handler or the dog is not certified to work the street because of liability issues and the possibility of the criminal being killed should a neck/head bite occur.

Are these PSDs any less of a dog because they will out on command no matter how driven? Or is it the raising, and training phylosophy of dogs in your country that puts your dogs on the ragged edge which requires the belly bands? I have to wonder if this is the case and that there may just be a different training style involved.

This is an old sport for you guys and your countrymen are set in their ways. I'm sure that this has worked for them for quite a while and the need to change style isn't so great that change has been made.

Be that as it may...The dogs do perform excellent. I just can't help but think there is another way to acheive the same goal without going to extremes (in some people's minds) not normally used in other parts of the world.

Thanks

Howard

The number of dogs on which this needs to be used is very limited. I would dare to say that an "ordinary" (police) handler wouldn't be able to cope. Don't even know if i would be able, sure would like to own a dog like that. they need a very strong handler (mentaly speaking) with loads of experience. these dogs are at the far end of the scale. But once you controle them they are unbeatable and they are an asset to the breedingstock.

Greetings

Johan

I consider my dog to have a extremely high drive in all aspects of bite work, now i am not to sure how i would compare my dog to the dogs you speak of.

As far as the correction goes i would still imagin with the dog being conditioned by being corrected on the neck he will know where the correction is coming from even more so with the cue of you yelling NO considering he didn't out on command. Yes i am aware of the tunnel vision high drive dogs have and you yelling probably sounds like a whisper to the dog.

It seems to me it is something i am going to need to see for my self to understand or get one of these dogs myself and see if i can tell the difference.