Quote: robbinmann

This makes me think though, maybe I shouldn't have put my question in the context that I did. Maybe its not an issue of whether the dog should bite on command, maybe its an issue of how the boundaries of your personal space are defined. It's my guess that this can be trained into the dog. My trainer has his dogs trained to bite if someone puts TWO hands on him. Fair enough, most times people aren't going to put two hands on you unless they are hugging you are attempting to do harm. Also, I would guess that together with threatening posture, sweat, fear smells, etc will induce the dog to action in such cases. I wouldn't want my hubby getting bit just hugging me or something. Maybe I'm not giving the dog enough credit to distinguish between a true threat and a non threat?

***Warning! No experience here, just commenting...


The first thing I thought when I read the first post was, why would someone ever try to approach you in the manner you described (come up behind you and tap you on the shoulder) when you have your dog with you? I know some people are dog friendly, but those who aren't terrified of your dog should at least be respectful of the breed's capabilities.

As far as the dog distinguishing the threat, I feel dogs have a "sixth sense" or heightened awareness. I remember seeing on a show, a dog that could tell when the owner was going to come home. That is, the owner would be out shopping, etc., and the moment she decided to head home, the dog inside the house started getting antzy. Impressive!

Also, the dogs that you all are training are sort of like athletes or more appropriately martial artists. With each day going by, they are getting better and better at catching the ball or the tug or the sleeve. When I heard Sandy's story about the dog catching the guy's arm in an instant, it reminded me of a story a friend told me about his Kenpo instructor. The teacher was in a bar, talking to a lovely lady, when suddenly, he reached up to block a blow that was coming at his head. Whatever happened next, he doesn't rememeber, but the people all around him watched in amazement as he proceeded kick the snot out of this guy in about 3 seconds! Apparently, she was married! But the point is, the training kicked in immediatly.

I think what happened with Sandy's dog demonstrates this natural instinct kicking in. Good dog!

***If I am wrong, please let me know!! Want to learn!

How about starting with attack upon command with your dog. I don't know if you can have the best of both worlds here, (but then maybe your a lot closer to it than you think). Sandy from what you said your dog is doing great with the direction your taking right now. I think you have to give the dog credit for sensing the right time to bite. I also think you need to give yourself credit for your awareness in a situation where this type of scenario is possible. I don't know your lifestyle and where you live but for me there isn't that many times or places I'm going to be where I actually need a dog to be trained that way. My dog seems to sense situations at times when I'm totally oblivious but then there are other times when I think there is a possibility. In those times I'm sure my stress level goes up and my dog seems to pick up on it which makes him feel the same way.
Then there are other times when I'll alert him of a possibility and in those times there aren't a lot of people that would want to try it with a 90 pound GSD staring at them with a huge bark and obvious intentions.

Ok, no one asked me, but I'm going to give my take on PPDs. I want a dog who is only to bite on command UNLESS I am physically or otherwise incapacitated. In other words, he is not allowed to bite someone just because he doesn't like them. He is NOT allowed to bite someone whose hand I am shaking, unless commanded. He IS allowed (and expected) to bite someone swinging at me or otherwise approaching me aggressively, and all bets are off if I am unable to give a command.

With all due respect to those who don't believe a dog is capable of discerning a real threat from a non-threat, a PPD is NOT for you. You need to work as a team, trusting each other, and if you don't think your dog capable of this, then just forget the whole idea. Dogs need to be tested in all sorts of scenarios, and I dare say that they're better if the handler doesn't know what's going on either, like Sandy said of her surprise attack in which Lear reacted appropriately.

My biggest struggle in training Caleb has been devising plausible, believable scenarios in which I was taken by surprise enough to react naturally, sparking his inherent desire to protect/defend (whether truly protective or just territorial-I don't really care which). I am so inherently low-key, and he reads me so well, that when I'm kind of ho-hum about something because I KNOW exactly what's going to happen and am not apprehensive, he knows this, and doesn't see the person as a serious threat. The times I have been actually surprised by an "attack," he reacted instantly, and appropriately. So, yes, I trust him to make that decision. As he's matured, he's gotten better at this, of course, and I worry much less about an innapropriate bite.

A few weeks ago I was at Starbuck's w/my mom, aunt, and grandma. Caleb was in my Jeep, sunroof open. There were some high school kids arguing (boyfriend/girlfriend) and he was watching them, but was not overly concerned. Then, the boy's friend ran up to the couple and began yelling in the girl's face, screaming profanities at her. All of a sudden, this giant, black, grizzly bear head and shoulders pop out of the sunroof and make it known that that is not appropriate behavior, and the rest of the body will follow if it doesn't cease immediately. I told him it was ok, and gave him the hand signal for "get the hell back down in the car" (it's actually one of my more used hand signals). He quieted and lowered himself so it was just his head, but kept an eye on them the rest of the time. My point in this long story is that they ARE absolutely capable of judging when someone has gone too far, and if they are stable dogs, you won't have a problem. A dog w/out sound temperament is going to make a lousy PPD anyway. From "knowing" Sandy and Robbin, I don't think either of them would put time/faith into a dog not deserving.

 Quote: jenni williams

A dog w/out sound temperament is going to make a lousy PPD anyway. From "knowing" Sandy and Robbin, I don't think either of them would put time/faith into a dog not deserving.

Thank you, Jenni!

 Quote: jenni williams

My point in this long story is that they ARE absolutely capable of judging when someone has gone too far, and if they are stable dogs, you won't have a problem.

This brings up a thought, I remember as a child having gsd's and other people owning them. There weren't any distinctions between working/show/working show dogs. A gsd was a gsd was a gsd. They had a reputation for knowing when and where there was a threat and took action. It has long been commented on that the gsd as a breed has "almost human like intelligence" It would be something to get inside the head of one and find out just how and what they process in the world around them. On the other hand, I was told by the shelter once that the highest reported bites came from gsd's. My guess is they were unstable or left in the backyard to grow their own assumptions about life. With proper training and nurturing I think they grow more and more in their ability to understand the world around them. This is the reason that they should be socialized as much as possible so that they don't feel threats where there really arent any. No doubt the very reason that I chose to own a gsd in the first place.

Jennie
Thank you! I think you have wonderfully clarified the discussion with your examples. I find it interesting that Caleb was willing to defend a stranger, I think that speaks volumes about his good temperament and judgement/intelligence.
And no, I don't have a PPD, and don't think I need one, but I am finding this whole discussion very educational.