Quote: Connie Sutherland

I'm not in any way saying that an alpha roll is the best tool in the box, but I'm not sure what else there was at that moment.

It is not the best tool in the box, I agree with that completely, but it was the only tool I had at the time. And although it sucks that it had to happen, I am not sorry or regretful that I did it, I know now that he may need a different collar from here on out.

Again, other than doing what I was taught to do, and not having the proper equipment to do anything else, I just wish I knew what needed to be explained further.....

 Quote: Carol Boche

.... It is not the best tool in the box, I agree with that completely, but it was the only tool I had at the time. ..... I just wish I knew what needed to be explained further.....

Exactly what I was trying to say.....

Carol,

A few thoughts here.

Lets make an assumption here - that this was not redirected aggression that was brought on from the pain of a broken tooth.

I would not be doing bark and hold work with this dog yet. If time is not an issue you need to settle the leadership issue before you get into protection training with this dog.

Run him through the pack structure program in the dvd I just released - Establishing Pack Struycutre With the Family Dog http://leerburg.com/308.htm

The foundation for that work came from my years of taking in truley dangerous dogs. Dogs that 99.999% of the trainers out there would not want anything to do with. A bunch of these dogs has seriously atacked previous owners.

In fact I would not even be doing obedience training with this dog until he was several weeks into the program. Do not pet this dog - do not play with this dog do not do anything other than feed him - take him outside and if you dont have a yard for him and have to walk him don't interact - be 100% aloof to him - not matter what he does

When the time comes for the obedience work - do it in muzzle. Use marker training to get him to get the muzzle on (in the dvd we show how to do this for collars, touching feet and ears - its the same for teaching a dog to accept the muzzle)

Then use the dominat dog collar for corrections. If your big enough to lift his feet off the ground. Too often dogs like this dont work well on prong collars because a prong collar correction will over stimulate the dog and trigger another incident.

Fact is I would probably be training this dog with a remote collar. This ONE STEP removes you from the picture - in the eyes of the dog.

In the future you may want to be real sure of a dog before you work him in a flat collar. You are kind of hung out to dry if your using one and the shit hits the fan. But then you already found that out.

For others that are reading this - if your dog ever does this and you don't have the experience to do what Carol did - discretion is the better part of valor. Walk away from it.

Learn to fight another day and NEVER PICK A FIGHT YOUR GOING TO LOOSE. Attempting to take a dog down and loosing that battle is fare worse than taking a bite and doing nothing in the moment other than putting the dog away.

I have had the dog for over a year and we are ready to certify in Air Scent.
When I first got the dog, he was a mess....would rip out of crates, barked and cried to get out of the crate, was obsessed with whatever he could find to use as a toy.....
I did the tough love thing and he now is okay in a crate, and he works very well around other dogs or distractions. He has been doing well with distractions until this time.

I have worked really hard on him and have gotten far with him and he has never shown any type of aggression in over a year, and there has been corrections but no issues to make me think he needed anything stronger than a fur saver or prong. He works very well in a flat collar as well.

I totally understand what you are saying though, but since I have had him for the amount of time that I have, that is why I think there is something up with his teeth......

I must say that I am really glad that you provided me with some input. It is greatly appreciated and I know I will be calling tomorrow with an order.....what you said, and how you said it makes perfect sense. I guess my question is....Do I start over again after a year of work?

I will not be protection training this dog. He has already been trained towards FEMA disaster standards (by another handler) and this is after he washed out of a LE program......or at least this is what I have been told, I have not been able to verify anything.

Edited by Carol Boche (11/25/2007 09:47 PM)
Edit reason: adding comments

One more thing, I am using the DD collar now......no more flat collars. I do not like being caught "with my pants down" so to speak.....

Unfortunately I've had similar incidents in the past where No real correction collar was available at the time of the offense. I haven't done an alpha roll in 10 years and probably never will again. During those incidents I quickly grabbed the dog by both cheeks and lifted him off the ground while staring him down and telling him to knock his shit off in a monotone voice until he looked away. Once submitted, the dog was let down and immediately subjected to some strict OB.
To hold a 75-85 lb dog off the ground long enough to get the desired result takes some strength so its not for everyone. The dog is not in a fight he can win, (If you have a good grip) and there's less of a chance either of us will be injured (Though it can happen). I've not had one come back at me after letting them down, nor did it affect our relationship.
For me its an alternative to the alpha roll. It tells the dog that I can easily do what I want to him without breaking a sweat, and I don't have to get pissed about it. Being off the ground the dog has zero control which they have to respect before they will be let down.
Will it work on every dog? Don't know. My dogs aren't ever allowed to disrespect me, and when they try it gets swiftly dealt with. Ed and others are right about the leadership role. It has to be established. But to keep it one must enforce the rules now and then. How harsh the punishment is dictated by the dogs' actions.

Howard

This thread has now taken a great turn and I appreciate it.
I had worked on establishing pack order with him, and all the others, however, like I stated earlier in the post, I have been kind of lax since he is very obedient.....waits to go through the door, does what he is told to do, lays quietly on his bed (which is now a crate and not in the open).......he waits patiently for his meals, and works like crazy when we work and train.

Although it is a bit embarrassing to admit, I think, aside from the tooth, I have made some mistakes by becoming complacent with him. No one wants to think that they messed up their own dog, especially me.....
But, that is why I enjoy this board. I can admit this (and not get bashed for it), get some great advice and learn new things, and become a better handler, which I am always willing to do.

 Quote: Carol Boche

Although it is a bit embarrassing to admit, I think, aside from the tooth, I have made some mistakes by becoming complacent with him. No one wants to think that they messed up their own dog, especially me.....
But, that is why I enjoy this board. I can admit this (and not get bashed for it), get some great advice and learn new things, and become a better handler, which I am always willing to do.

Ah, but Carol, It would CERTAINLY WAY suck if it were someone else who screwed up your dog, huh???

 Quote: carol boche

...I had worked on establishing pack order with him, and all the others, however, like I stated earlier in the post, I have been kind of lax since he is very obedient....

I had a recent similar situation with Lear in Oct, actually 6 incidents within 4 days, the first being the absolute worse one. I had also become lax prior to that because he was well-behaved. Although not being as versed as you in pack order issues, I'm sure I missed a lot of signs. Coupled with his age of 16 mos at that time, led to an explosion.

 Quote: carol boche

Although it is a bit embarrassing to admit, I think, aside from the tooth, I have made some mistakes by becoming complacent with him. No one wants to think that they messed up their own dog, especially me.....

I had become complacent also. It's good (for me) to hear those words from Carol, now I don't feel so badly about my mistakes. I'm a novice with Lear's type of GSD. My other GSDs had no issues with pack structure even though I had never heard of the phrase when I had them. They always did what I told them, no challenging ever took place. So although I read so much about working lines, I guess I have to admit it didn't "take" mentally and I certainly wasn't emotionally prepared for the times of challenge Lear would show toward me.

The first incident when Lear came at me, he only had a flat collar on also. I had to go through his teeth to get to it, then had to twist the collar in my hand to keep him from backing out of it which he was trying extremely hard to do. After that he had the DD collar on with a drag line, and although I have enough strength to pick his front feet off the ground with that collar, the next incidents proved that there was no way I could get to the drag line without again going past his head and through his teeth. (His drag line always ended up behind him for some reason.)

As Ed posted, for me to take that dog down would have been disastrous for me and I would have definitely lost that fight. I have neither the strength nor the expertise that Carol has to do what she did and would never ever attempt it.

I did want to mention one more thing. As I began the groundwork again and while I was working through it, I cannot believe how many things I let Lear get away with before, small things. Things I wouldn't have thought about because, well heck, I'd had dogs before and never had to be so regulating of their activities, or of mine toward them. The groundwork made those things starkly evident to me in a dog like Lear.

Wow Sandy and Carol you girls are really getting hit hard by the rank challenge issue. Makes my rank challenge issues pale by comparison.

Sandy what did you see changing in Lear's behaviour leading up to this? Lazy obedience, aloofness and the like? I know you say you probably missed the signs but looking back at it you probably see the signs now.