Quote: Jennifer Mullen

and you know what my biggest problem is? acknowledging that she is a dog with the capacity to kill, even though i see her behaviour on a daily basis.

Right there with you Jennifer . It would be one thing if I had sought out a puppy/dog that I wanted for protection or sport work - one that I HOPED would have the potential for lethal aggression... but alas, I wanted a sweet and gentle companion - and boy has it been a ride watching my dog grow up and into himself! I don't fault him at all for his dominant personality, in fact I love it at times, nor am I sorry I didn't get a cream puff of a personality - but it's certainly been an adjustment. Unfortunately, I think that discrepancy in the way people perceive and deal with things as they ARE, vs. things as we had HOPED is what lands a lot of perfectly good, but strong willed and intense dogs, in shelters.

*And Steven - THANK YOU for that explanation!

~Natalya

We're talking about the difference between a dog that needs training or socialization ("rehab aggressive dogs without ever using a correction") and a dog that is genetically wired to be so dominant that it has no problem coming back at a handler.

You can't "rehab" genetics, ever. All you can do is prove that you are the alpha, over and over again, every moment that you interact with this kind of dog.

Your ignorance of this type of dog is apparent.

I think the point being made over and over is that the DD -- in the emergency you mention -- IS the only effective way.

The thing is that it's not something I, and I'm sure many others, grasped until I saw it used in time when it was needed. I imagine that seeing it needed and unavailable would work too.

But you posted about chokes.

 Quote: Benjamin Colbert

What do you guys think? I may have my reservations about the dominant dog collar but I absolutely hate the idea of choke chains.
I told a client today I would put a prong on my dog (and i do) before even thinking of choke chains because of the safety aspect. Do you guys agree? Have you heard stories of chokes damaging dogs necks or am I being a pansy?

And you are correct that the rest of the thread segued from the original question, but you did mention DD collars.

benjamin - i think we got on the discussion of DD collars b/c you mentioned you had an issue with them. threads are like conversations, sometimes they mutate.

natalya - it's true. i know what she's like, but then when she rolls over for a belly rub, i think 'oh she's a sweet dog' - she's both. i just need to learn to reconcile that. and i agree - i respect teagan for what she is. would i like it if i could trust her off-leash inside? yes. can i? no. but you know what, that's okay. having her is different than what i expected but it's got it's own rewards and interesting moments, and i can't say i'm not learning a lot

 Quote: trevor morris

Bottom line is Mike is right, and until you own, or work with on a daily basis, a truly dominant dog you really can't understand it. You can sissy foot around all you want, and talk about sweet little positive methods to control agression. However, people with real serious dogs know better than this, and the inexperience is obvious.

Please check your PMs. Thanks.

 Quote: benjamin colbert

Its funny how the elitism bleeds through this thread. I did not post here to argue about DD collars. I posted to as about chokes. As soon as some of you see a post you don't agree with you jump on it, tearing it down but providing know useful info of your own.

We speak from experience. Sorry if you do not believe that, but to each his own.
What info do you want? If you are looking for a board or more experienced trainer to tell you what you WANT to hear rather than what you NEED to hear, you came to the wrong place.

If you want to learn and grow and become a better dog handler/trainer and get off your high horse, then, welcome.

 Quote: benjamin colbert

Nothing you say is going to convince me that hanging a dog is necessary in anything but an emergency (where all bets are off).

ENTER FETZ!!!!!!!!!
We may not be able to "say" anything, but I will pay your travel to have a great trainer show you.

 Quote: Benjamin Colbert

There are many effective, professional dog trainers that rehab aggressive dogs with out ever using a correction.

this is a very sincere question - what do those trainers do?

i do my best to eliminate sitautions where i know teagan has highly aggressive reactions. but i can't eliminate them all.

when she's in high prey drive/kill mode (and she isn't a dog that fools around w/what she's after, she wants to kill), what would i do to stop the behaviour that wouldn't involve a correction?

I'm going to add my -.02 cents here!
Those that know me know I'm a huge fan of purely positive. I've titled dogs in both AKC and Schutzhund with never having to give a physical correction. I've raised all my dogs from young pups and believe dominance is controlable from the get go with very little physical force. It's a leadership issue, not a power issue!
That being said, if I had ANY issues with aggressive dominance it would be taken care of humanely. That,IMHO, is with the use of a DD collar.

In the past I've messd up dogs with the "normal" choke and have gotten aggressive responses with pinch collars. Even though I haven't use a pinch in a number of years, it's still the best tool out there for those that know how, and decide to use it.

Still, I wouldn't hesitate for a nano second to use the DD collar if needed.

You're all missing my point, and it was misconstrued entirely. I worded it poorly! I am not differentiating so much between working dogs and pets, but between types of dogs, and the means necessary to control them. I was trying to point out the fact that one can not judge a method until they've had a dog they needed to use it on. Sorry, but when someone suggests a down instead of a correction for BITING the handler, I tend to think they probably are working with what I will call PETS for lack of a better term. Perhaps I shouldn't be incorporating knowledge from previous threads into this one, but I can't help but feel like the OP was kind of treading on the same territory as in the "Rock" thread. My point, if you'll all re-read my last paragraph, is that the OP is getting in the habit of questioning or flat-out rejecting the use of a means of control simply because he hasn't needed it. My main issue w/this is the judgment part. I maintain that while most of us are more than happy to help w/pet questions and acknowledge that most people (thankfully) will not need to use the DD collar or other "choke-out" measures, the OP seems to continually want to suggest that we are somehow in the dark, and need to be enlightened on how to use methods that, IMO, are simply too dangerous to chance that they won't work. If you read what I wrote, I said that my problem was that the OP is not nearly as willing to accept what works for dogs like this as we are to accept the methods that work for the dogs he commonly deals with. Simply noting an inequality.

No, not all working dogs are dominant, and not all pets are easy to deal with. I didn't realize I had to state this.

Ben, you state hanging a dog is not necessary "in anything but an emergency"...did I not state that no one is advocating using these methods for fun??? Of course, they're for emergencies! To suggest that anyone would use them for trivial offenses is insulting. I don't believe that you can truly "rehab" a seriously aggressive dog w/out ever using a correction. Sure, you can probably be nicey-nice enough w/them that if you don't challenge them they won't show the aggression again...but I absolutely will not ever consider an aggressive dog "rehabbed," and will continue to prevent recurrence of the aggression. If they're dominant, especially, they are that way for life. Control-not change.

Now, I think while your question MAY have been about choke collars overtly, there were very strong undertones about use of the DD collar..."reservations," I believe. That's how this thread segued. Sorry if you didn't want to discuss your reservations, but I think that's how we got here; we thought you were open to discussing your reservations w/the DD collar.

I think this:

QUOTE:
But while we aren't suggesting you use these methods on the PETS you deal with, you keep pushing towards trying PET methods on dogs who are a far cry from Fluffy. END

was what made some think you were differentiating along the lines of pet v. working.

Thank you for the explanation.