In addition, and if what he says is true (in the book), those dogs get worked like rented mules with exercise. 6-8 hours, if my simple match is accurate. He also has assistants/assistance. Not quite the mere 45 minute walk he reccomends on the show.

So, correct me if I am wrong but the general consensis here is that it IS possible to have more than one intact male in your pack, running together, living harmoniously. Providing serious "pack structure" has been established. Neutering then is not a factor whatsoever in this equation.

As far as Caesar goes, the reason I brought him up in the first place is because he does handle so many dogs in one pack at one time. I'm, without a doubt, convinced that there are many issues that the public does not see on camera due to a combination of factors. Still, bottom line is it seems with enough time and respect that he could, most likely, get the situation under control simply by understanding the dynamics of pack leadership, regardless of the males being intact or not.

Edited by RobbinMann (12/13/2007 07:01 AM)
Edit reason: missed a thought.

 Quote: robbinmann

So, correct me if I am wrong but the general consensis here is that it IS possible to have more than one intact male in your pack, running together, living harmoniously. Providing serious "pack structure" has been established. Neutering then is not a factor whatsoever in this equation.

I recently had 3 intact males (1 GS PSD, 1 GS PPD and 1 Mali PSD) and 2 females, as well as 3 cats all living together without incident. In my home, I am the major contributing factor when it comes to preventing dog fights or animal aggression...as is my wife.

So the answer would be..Yes.

Howard

 Quote: robbinmann

So, correct me if I am wrong but the general consensis here is that it IS possible to have more than one intact male in your pack, running together, living harmoniously.

Absolutely. As evidenced by the number of people in this discussion alone who do it successfully.

 Quote: robbinmann

Providing serious "pack structure" has been established. Neutering then is not a factor whatsoever in this equation.

Neutering CAN be a factor as to how SMOOTHLY the multiple intact male arrangement goes, but so can the temperment/personality of the dogs AND, more importantly, the ability of the handler. Just like it's easier for many of the more experienced people on this forum to live in this kind of situation than it would be for ME, neutering *could* make the difference between an INexperienced handler keeping the peace and all out dog fights left and right.

Honestly, there are too many variables about any given situation to make judgements, but my feeling is that, with the right handler, most multiple intact male households can work. When they DON'T work out, neutering one of the pack *can* change the dynamics - I have seen it happen, with good results. However, again, each scenario is uniquely different, and many people (here at least) are NOT inclined to neuter anyway, so they work around any issues in other ways.

As has already been mentioned - multiple dog households, with all ALTERED dogs can experience just as much tension and fighting as any other - so hormones are not at all the ONLY "factor" in the situation, but I wouldn't say they had nothing whatsoever to do with it...

Just my 2 cents.

Great thread though. I think a similar discussion was started when I inquired about getting a new male puppy (to be left intact) to raise alongside my 'dog-aggressive but only to intact males' neutered male... that conversation ended with - anything could happen and it's primarily up to me to make it work.

~Natalya

I believe a strong pack structure should be provided regardless of whether the males are intact or not.

If I have read the info on this website correctly, the Alpha male/female is the one that decides when to eat, when to walk, when to fight, etc. Anything that goes against the Alpha gets corrected. So in this case we're Alpha, thus it is in our control whether the dogs fight or not, TO THE BEST OF OUR ABILITY. Is there some tructh to that?

enrique

 Quote: robbinmann

on occasion I have noticed that you are perceived in perhaps a different light than you intend. I seem to recall a similar post about a week ago that you were misinterpreted. Boy do I understand! It's that sarcastic wit that we share, sometimes you can't hear it through the text.

WHEW! Semantics is a game I rather enjoy, but alas, it seems to get in the way of what I am saying and the way it's perceived by the vast majority. I'm afraid I don't know how to "speak" any differently, nor do I wish to, so I'd sooner quit posting all togther than change my style. You know, I have to be extreme in all things, LOL. I simply cannot help it; I am incorrigible.

In all seriousness, what continues to absolutely shock me, however, is the fact that there's a perception of disagreement here. I fail to see how I live much differently w/my dogs than anyone else w/6 .

Forgive me for being long-winded, but here's a quick run-down:
A few can be together unsupervised, any of them can be together for short durations, supervised, all can be together in the car or on prongs/leashes...I just don't see how that's anything but realistic. Most of you have seen my photos. There are varying combos of dogs in most/many of them. To read the "opposing" posts (I use quotes b/c I still don't see where we are disagreeing, really) you'd think that I take one dog out the front, on lead, and put him into his steel box, and pray he doesn't see any of the others, then sneak another one out the back into a cell in solitary . I simply don't let them run loose together and get out of control. The only one totally isolated from a few of the others is Qira. She knows Widget, plays w/Caleb, interacts w/Simon briefly, but has not met Xander or Mia. She is too young and small for their bullying manner of play, so she's separate.

 Quote:

Now, would you like to lay down on my couch? Let's talk about your mother and your insatiable desire to be psychotic controlling bitch.

Oh! This one's easy! But it has little to do w/my Mother. And you forgot the part about how I "demand idolization!" LOL.

I basically agree w/Ed's points on neutering, and also his take on Cesar. Having never seen the show, I didn't want to throw out too much, as it would be speculation, but my bet is that the ones he can't manage simply disappear. So, Robbin, and anyone else who thinks he's superhuman and you don't measure up b/c your dog has "issues", don't be too hard on yourselves; he has a lot of help, and the parts he screws up are edited out! I will admit I have a bad taste in my mouth concerning some of his diehard followers trying to give me advice on handling my dogs saying "Cesar says..." . Usually, they don't even have a dog.

 Quote: howard knauf

In my home, I am the major contributing factor when it comes to preventing dog fights or animal aggression...as is my wife.

This is EXACTLY what I meant by HUMANS being the "determining factor". Thanks, Howard.

Sorry to be so wordy, but hey, I missed a few pages last night!

---

Enrique,

I totally agree with that and it is true. You have read your information correctly.

As Mike pointed out, those dogs are nearly all rescues, unadoptable and rehabbed by CM. So no, they are not intact. However, he also "boards" several intact males while their owners travel, and they are indeed incorporated into the permanent "pack" while they are there.

He also has at least two dogs who could not be integrated into the pack and who live separately, not alone, but with no large-group dog contact. He was unable to rehabilitate them to the point of joining the pack.

They do get a lot of exercise, and no, not the 45 minutes he recommends to the owners who give their dogs zero exercise. They leave about dawn every day and spend hours in the hills about L.A. with Cesar in front and a helper in back. Off leash.

There are also pools and treadmills and track at the new facility.

I think that Ed says it all when he says this:

"This show is very entertaining - and it has caused a lot of people to think about pack structure - which is great. But it does not present a program for people to follow and many many of the techniques that Cesar uses are DANGEROUS for a novice or even an intermediate trainer to attempt. He can make things work because of his handling skills but the vast vast majority of pet owners cant do what he does."

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

... live separately, not alone, but with no large-group dog contact...

YES! This is it! This is what I've been struggling to say/describe in reference to mine that can't be together 100%, and also in reference to the only real way I see for the average Joe to handle a sizeable group of dogs. Separate and alone are two different things, as are pair or small-group interaction and large-group. Separate for safety, but not isloated isolated. Let's face it, most of us on here do NOT have help like he does, nor swimming pools and treadmills, etc. I just SUCK at explaining concisely.

Most of us are not CM, either.


Two out of 40-60.