Quote: Jennifer N. Hack

The benefit is praise or petting usually.

Yes, some world-class trainers use it today, but most people don't even understand the method or they don't have the skill needed to use it properly. At least with treat and click method anyone can use it and its harmless, requires no skill and easy to learn.

Interesting POV.

 Quote: Jennifer N. Hack

The benefit is praise or petting usually.

What would be the basic difference between a reward of praise/petting and a reward of food?

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

 Quote: Jennifer N. Hack

The benefit is praise or petting usually.

Yes, some world-class trainers use it today, but most people don't even understand the method or they don't have the skill needed to use it properly. At least with treat and click method anyone can use it and its harmless, requires no skill and easy to learn.

Interesting POV.

Indeed. I always thought that compulsion trainers I've met or talked to fit into one of these categories:
1) don't know any better (ie. learned to train dogs 150 years ago)
2) are too lazy and impatient to properly train a dog
3) aren't sufficiently skilled to motivate the dog and keep its attention by motivational means
4) use hard compulsion to get the job done quicker so they can train as many dogs as possible as quickly as possible and make as much money as possible - who cares if the dog suffers and hates the work as a result?

Aaaand finally the most unpleasant that I've ever met:
5) have a severe ego problem and feel the need to bully and torment some poor animal to assert their own sense of superiority

(Not saying that 5) applies to anyone here; just one trainer I met. Most of the ones I've encountered seem to be 1-4).
If you can think of a different category I'd like to hear it.

I don't understand why you'd take the time to motivate and marker train your own pups but are unwilling to put the same kind of effort and consideration into your clients' dogs.

Did you see any downside to motivational training that would lead you to go the pure compulsion route?

 Quote: Yuko Blum

Indeed. I always thought that compulsion trainers I've met or talked to fit into one of these categories:
1) don't know any better (ie. learned to train dogs 150 years ago)
2) are too lazy and impatient to properly train a dog
3) aren't sufficiently skilled to motivate the dog and keep its attention by motivational means
4) use hard compulsion to get the job done quicker so they can train as many dogs as possible as quickly as possible and make as much money as possible - who cares if the dog suffers and hates the work as a result? .... I don't understand why you'd take the time to motivate and marker train your own pups but are unwilling to put the same kind of effort and consideration into your clients' dogs. ... Did you see any downside to motivational training that would lead you to go the pure compulsion route?

These are great points, Yuko. I don't understand why you'd take the time to motivate and marker train your own pups but are unwilling to put the same kind of effort and consideration into your clients' dogs.

Is it just that the clients are presented with the choice and prefer the heel-in-20-minutes method? Are they aware of the choices?

Strict compulsion training is for people with low level skills and imagination. It's a long worn path with a lot of animals not reaching their potential, JMO

 Quote: Al Curbow

Strict compulsion training is for people with low level skills and imagination. It's a long worn path with a lot of animals not reaching their potential, JMO

Whatever. Don't down MY methods, when you haven't even seen me train a dog. You don't know what you're talking about.

Hey, I would like to know what your methods are so I can put them down, too!

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

These are great points, Yuko. I don't understand why you'd take the time to motivate and marker train your own pups but are unwilling to put the same kind of effort and consideration into your clients' dogs.

Is it just that the clients are presented with the choice and prefer the heel-in-20-minutes method? Are they aware of the choices?

Compulsion training takes a lot of skill, even more so than most other methods when done correctly. You have to be able to READ dogs and change your technique for each dog individually. The dog still makes its own choices. There is physical manipulation involved to teach the dogs, dogs are physical animals and understand this, I am getting on their level and communicating with body language, too. Praise is something the dog will work for to please the handler, who may not always have toys or treats on them. The goal is for them to 1. want to work, 2. like to work, 3. have to work. This is for dogs and pets who are not going to be trialing on a field (most dogs), but it can be used with working dogs and trick dogs successfully, too.

 Quote: Jennifer N. Hack

Praise is something the dog will work for to please the handler, who may not always have toys or treats on them.

I think it's a common misconception that marker training with tangible rewards involves handing over treats or toys for every correct response to a command forever.

It doesn't.

 Quote: Jennifer N. Hack

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

These are great points, Yuko. I don't understand why you'd take the time to motivate and marker train your own pups but are unwilling to put the same kind of effort and consideration into your clients' dogs.

Is it just that the clients are presented with the choice and prefer the heel-in-20-minutes method? Are they aware of the choices?

Compulsion training takes a lot of skill, even more so than most other methods when done correctly. You have to be able to READ dogs and change your technique for each dog individually. The dog still makes its own choices. There is physical manipulation involved to teach the dogs, dogs are physical animals and understand this, I am getting on their level and communicating with body language, too. Praise is something the dog will work for to please the handler, who may not always have toys or treats on them. The goal is for them to 1. want to work, 2. like to work, 3. have to work. This is for dogs and pets who are not going to be trialing on a field (most dogs), but it can be used with working dogs and trick dogs successfully, too.

I really would like to read any response to

I don't understand why you'd take the time to motivate and marker train your own pups but are unwilling to put the same kind of effort and consideration into your clients' dogs.

Is it just that the clients are presented with the choice and prefer the heel-in-20-minutes method? Are they aware of the choices?

 Quote: Jennifer N. Hack

With my dogs, yes I use food and marker training .... With the majority of the dogs I train, No I don't use any treats, I don't do marker training.

Jennifer, i don't have to see you train a dog to know what the final result is, a friend of mine has been training dogs for 35 yrs with your method, the results are mediocre. My method is pure motivational and fun when they're pups, bribe, lure, ball, food etc. No corrections required till later. Another thing, why when you use compulsion do you think the dog is working for the handler? When In reality the dog is working to avoid the correction, my buddy (compulsion only) says the same thing and i crack up, lol