Kojak:

While I disagree with your comments, I compliment your persistence in a forum where you are the minority. This would be a very boring place if we just all got along. Now that said. Find me a dog that has a motivation to please me (praise) as strong as a high drive food or prey dog then I would throw every ball and hot dog away and buy that dog. All obedience training comes down to one basic principle. If you “do this" for me, I will “do this”. The first “do this” is replaced by a command. The second can be replaced by any of the following:

Feed you
Give you my ball
Praise you
Not hurt you
Satisfy some drive/need, ect..

Now the more the dog wants the second part the more reliable the first part will be. That is why “not hurt you” (avoidance conditioning) is so frequently used. Because it is always something the dog wants. To find a dog that wants praise as much as a high drive prey dog is very very very rare. What would you rather work for money or someone saying you did a good job? Show me the money or in a dog’s mind show me the ball.

I wish I would have read this thread sooner. Now, if we are dealling with a pet...here we go.

Regular collar. No training collars. No treats. Put the dog in a sit. Walk to the end of the leash. You sit down. If the dog breaks you have no business going across the room. But anyway, assuming you go across the room anyway...

As soon as the dog breaks...say uhuhuhuhuhuhuhuhuh. If you don't want to sound like a motor boat use nonononononono. The point is there can be no silence. Also, you can't be excited and run back to your dog. Use your normal tone of voice and your normal movements. If you get excited the dog gets excited. nonononononnononno all the way back to the dog lift the dog into the sit. The nono's are all the way until the dog is back where they are supposed to be. NO PRAISE at this point. There is a chance the dog could misinterpret the praise was for you coming back or getting up. Also DO NOT REPEAT the command SIT. If you do they are starting the exercise over and didn't get 'shown' what was expected. My halucination is you do this 3 times and your dog will stay as long as you want it to.

By using the method above I have labs that will stay when I drive around my RC car covered in a coon skin cap. Quite impressive if I do say so myself...PAT PAT PAT. Ouch strained my shoulder... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

thanks to all for the information and insight on this one. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Vince, Thank you for your kind words. I respect the honesty you have shown me today.
As a side note I am very comfortable being the minority. I've been one all my life. LOL

Anyway, I know, respect, and understand of which you write. Every dog that walks into my training building has tons of food driven behavior.(both good and bad food driven behavior). I fix daily 8 to ten dogs with these problems. I also bring to light the owners miss handling of this technique. Mind you I am not anti-treat. I just get tired of it being the answer to every question, on every topic, every day. ( Mind you I have an excellent location just down the block from a treat training company!). Now don't get me wrong I KNOW THE DIFFERENCE between what this board is trying to teach and what others teach so I'm not trying to mix knowledge or be condecending.(sp)
I feel there always should be a purpose to the training. And most of the time the purpose is not just the drive but the bridging of the relationship between owner and dog.
I did not read that this handler was looking for advise in competition but rather just simple advise on getting her dog to stop sliding into the down position from a given sit. Which was a breaking of a given command. and IMO I do not see a dog of her age should have a problem sitting for such a short period of time. The sit can still have focus and can still have purpose. Yes it would not win an award on the field of competition but it should be able to do a good respectful sit minus the slide.

Thank you again, KOJAK

My background is in akc obedience. The top handlers in akc are much better today with play training than they used to be,many are very good, but there is still to much cumpulsion. One of the problems IMHO is that the vast majority of people get started in ob because they have let things get out of hand so bad that mom or dad throw up their hands and scream "Take that damn dog and do something with it". Without knowing any better, the go to a civic center, local Y, etc. I'm not knocking these places in general because they may luck out with a very good Trainer, but a lot of these"trainers" are people who have trained one or two dogs therefore they are now "experts". I know this because that is how I started years ago <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> I havent competed in a few years, but when I get back in three yrs from now it will be with a real trainer. Tom rose is about 40 min from my house. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

It's true, there are many AKC trainers using more motivational methods these days, but even those seem to limit themselves to food rewards. Alot of the dogs bred for sport these days are prey monsters and would give a much better performance if rewarded with play, but the typical AKC obedience class is indoors in a small facility with 8-12 dogs per class. Makes it a little tough to play 2-balls!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Sch3FH2,

 Quote:

If she learns the exercises in a postive way FIRST, you can use compulsion later to get the last bit of precision that you need and they'll still keep that happy attitude (thank good old Pavlov for studying that phenomena).

That was a great statement, I still use compulsion along with treats. We have to remember that every action will not have a positive outcome. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I may start using a CLICKER, well maybe one day?? :rolleyes:

This is where you have to be versitile with your training methods. No one method alone can work with very K-9 being trained. Dogs are dogs as people are people. NO TWO ARE ALIKE!!!

An open mind to the individual temperment and attitude of each dog should be of the utmost priority for every trainer.

I think this non trainer has said enough!!

I was starting out in CKC obedience based on the recommendation of several people who thought the bond I had with my dog plus his intelligence and willingness to please would make a great competition team. I took 2 years off formal training, had fun tried some agility. Then I chose a facility that runs classes that helps you prepare for your CD etc. Without polishing a routine he and I scored mid 180s in a "test trial". Most of the instructors have OTCh, HIT, dogs. We were reminded that food could only be used sparingly and to work primarily with compulsion and praise. I don't ever remember anyone saying the word "drive".

In one set of classes I learned to yank my dog on a long line to get him to recall faster. Result, a dog that does not like formal recalls. In another set of classes the instructor told us if our dogs moved their front paws even a little to go up and smack them hard on the chest to keep their feet tucked and in position (I refused to do this). I finished the classes but was disgusted with the whole process. I believed in motivational training, but it can be very confusing to a new dog trainer as to "whose ideas are best?". Frequently you get caught up in the "Well they have an OTCh dog, they must be doing something right." Now, a few years later, it's become much more important to me not that a dog has a "title" but "HOW" (through what process) that title was achieved.

I really like the "drive theory" especially as presented by Flinks through this board. Simply put, it makes sense. I've seen some aspects of it more often applied in an agility class. My next pup I will definately get a Bernhard video and focus a lot on drive. In the meantime, my older dog and I are enjoying a renewed pleasure in training as a result of this board.

Kojak:

"Now don't get me wrong I KNOW THE DIFFERENCE between what this board is trying to teach and what others teach"

True. Because there is so much misinformation out there sometimes we tend to lean too much on the positive side. Could be to balance the scale with the prong monsters.

"purpose is not just the drive but the bridging of the relationship between owner and dog."

Excellent point. One that I and others are sometimes guilty of. Bernard's theories have opened my eyes a bit to this.

"I did not read that this handler was looking for advise in competition"

Either did I. As you assume that all posts are non sport I assume that they are. Different backgrounds.

"Yes it would not win an award on the field of competition but it should be able to do a good respectful sit minus the slide."

You and I disagree on this one. Unless your looking for points, the difference between a sit/stay and a down/stay is irrelevant and just showing off IMO.