oh how sad. Yes, I think the membership is aware that there are several issues that require attention, and pretty quickly. This thread is about the Sieger Show, and I will stick with that topic, for now.

Some people continue to misunderstand what the petition is about. It is about the rules, as they are written and how they are NOT enforced. It is NOT about how working dogs can work and how most show lines cannot. It is a fundamental issue of the rules not being followed and how that affects the breed, as a whole. Yes, the majority of entries for a sieger show are show lines, there are a few working lines entered. If the rules were followed, as they are currently written we would definitely see better dogs receiving what was at one time a prestigious honor of Excellent Select.
I would stand, applaud, scream and whistle to see a working line dog take Excellent Select! and believe it or not, I am a show line owner, breeder, trainer, and handler. There is this stigma that hangs over show lines and show line people, yes it is of their making. I say their's because even though I have show lines, my dogs are not treated, trained or expected to be show dogs. I expect them to be treated and trained like a GERMAN SHEPHERD DOG! Guess what? there are others that feel the same way about their dogs too!
Truthfully, it is very disheartening to see the breed I love so, be presented in a such a way that really cheapens the breed. What makes it that much harder to swallow is that there are rules for how the performance test is to be judged and evaluated and for years the rules have not been followed. This is a big issue! (Yes, I know there are other big issues as well).
I am sick of hearing "it is only show lines, let them have their venue." Great, then let them have their venue, HOWEVER, if the event is a UScA event, and there are rules about the judging of that event, then, those rules should be followed, JUST LIKE ANY OTHER USA event!
If I had a dollar for every person who has complained about the lack of ability in the dogs presented and ones who have won, not just in this year but previous years, I would have a LOT of money. Comments such as "nothing will happen" "too much money will be lost" are so distressing. There are people who are trying to make a change. Maybe we will and maybe we will not. That remains to be seen!! There is this misconception that this will die down and come next April the SAME exact thing will happen again. We still have regional meetings, and we still have a national meeting in the months to follow. I know for a fact that there are many people who will NOT let this drop.
The organization has a choice to make. 1) FOLLOW THE RULES AS THEY ARE CURRENTLY WRITTEN 2) Change the rules to follow and promote what they have been allowing for many years 3)remove the performance test from the show, stop calling it a sieger show and name it the National GSD Show.

To answer your question, to my knowledge USA has not taken an offical stance on the situation, as yet. However, at the EB yesterday in Concord NH anything could have happened. I wouldn't want the stigma of the sieger show to overshadow the North Americans, but I would be willing to bet there was some conversation about the situation.

There is a YEAR until the next sieger show. Change does NOT happen over night, as much as we would like. I remind people to add their name to the petition. To attend your regional meeting as well as the national. Can't make those meetings? well, here is an idea, a good old fashioned letter! send it to your regional director and to the EB.

We cannot more forward to change things if we sit back and do nothing.

At the risk of sounding defensive, I do train and handle my own dogs. I am out there actively training and preparing for trials. Trials on USA club fields. I have never done any event with my dogs on my own club field with my own club helpers. Oh, and even though my dogs are show lines, they aren't ring trained, shame on me, as I am sure that has angered a ring judge once or maybe twice.

I really do look forward to seeing more GSD owners wanting and demanding the working ability in their dog(s). There are more of us than one would think.

What, if anything, is the discussion on the showline sites about these problems?
Are there enough showline breeders with any "pull" that want changes made?

 Quote: bob scott

What, if anything, is the discussion on the showline sites about these problems?
Are there enough showline breeders with any "pull" that want changes made?

First, Dee I really, really appreciate where you are coming from, all of your excellent on topic points, and the fact that you are "training" where your mouth is! If like many of us, you are also a member of WDA, I encourage you to e-mail an exact copy of your posts here to the new President of the WDA, Danny Spreitler at admin@spreitler.com. You are NOT alone, and my understanding is that the new leadership of the WDA has every intention of enforcing the rules at the NASS this fall.

Bob, I only read one show line oriented board, and not all that regularly. But after the USA Sieger Show, there were complaints as there have been after most Sieger Shows. To some of Dee's points - there are often complaints but then time rolls on and the same things happen again and again. You don't see a whole lot of smaller show line breeders actively engaged as a result, IMO.

I think both the UScA and WDA will have to be willing to really suck it up and do some things that will NOT be popular at all with the few large scale breeders if this is to ever change. They will also have to be realistic about what "change" is going to do in the near term to Sieger Show entries. Financial realities will have to be considered too. From the sound of things I am hearing unofficially, I believe the incoming WDA officers sound willing to take a bold step. (how sad that simply following the existing rules is considered and "bold step."....) But anyway, I will be very interested to see how the protection tests go at the NASS in October.

I DO believe that if these organizations are willing to face the near term financial and political realities, AND if the smaller but more dedicated (to the standards) breeders are willing to step up and fill the gaps, then the overall picture can be light years better a few years from now.

At least that's my two cents on the matter.

Beth

Beth, I think you hit it on the head about "not being popular with large scale breeders". These are the people that spend obscene amounts of money with importing big named, "titled" dogs and sending other dogs overseas for fast titles.
Money is power, unfortunately.

If you look back at the old BSP tapes and video there were very few sables, most of the dogs looked somewhat like a show line, blk and tan etc. This was before the split. Two different breeds have occurred at some point. I have even worked a few show lines that were outstanding, however these were not dogs that were pretty enough to place in a Sieger Show. Looks are given preference over ability. This is what has evolved and taken place. For what I have seen alot of people think that having a dog with a small amount of drive is over the top, and this is what they strive for. This in general is what the Sieger Show anywhere has become for the most part. The rules are ignored and have been for sometime. I understand that this about the Sieger Show, but when an organization has alot of other issues then how can one issue be expected to be resolved? The integrity of the org. and certain people has been debated for a long time, this is just another example of it not just the one example.To expect change and ignore the other issues thinking change will happen, is being optimistic to say the least. This is just another example, about rules being broken and maybe even corruption. This is world-wide. Rules are not applied the same in the show circuit and the working circuit for that matter. While I do grasp the concept of the petition, to think that there are not other issues surrounding this, and I applaud the cause, it is naive at best to think that. You make a valid point in bringing to light that this is the USCA. USCA has for a long time tried and mirrored the SV. What is going on in Germany with the Sieger Show? What is going on with the the working and show dogs? To not address that as if it is not relevant to what has happened recently and think that with some folks making noise a huge change will occur, leaving everyone in the same position holding office and judging........I wish anyone luck that tries that endeavor. There will be a whole lot of fizzle and no Gin.

I hear the same stories about how people want more working ability in the show lines. But you know what if there is a super dog that is a show line and a super worker, SG in the body, I guarantee you he will be lucky to see 10 breeding's from other show line breeders in his life. I have heard first hand of a dog in New England that is super, lots of working titles and you know what, he gets no breeding's. The show folks are breeding for looks. They will not breed to less even if his temperament is better then looks. They will pay and train the dog to do the absolute minimal for the bite work, pay for SCH titles as they are required and that is it. I do understand that there are some folks, like you that maintain working ability in their dogs, but they will never win the Sieger Show or place high. There is a large number of people that enjoy and fancy the show dogs. Right, wrong, grey etc it is what it is.

I train with a decent size training group, go to a USA club that is nearby for trials, and can tell you this that there are a number of show dogs that come out, there a lesser number of working line dogs that come out and the folks that own the show lines are happy that their dog chases a ball and maybe get a title one day. they have no interest in ever going to a large working trial. And as for the work line folks, they have no real interest to ever go to a conformation show, let alone the Sieger Show. I just don't see standing up to the large kennels and depending on the small breeders to hold the Sieger Show. I also do not think that we will see a helper say with the power of Lotus Perkins ever testing dogs at the Sieger show with the type of intensity that he brings in the Nationals. Who knows maybe I am wrong. When people accept that there are two GSD's and focus thier goals on which ever one you want, this is when we will see real change. The one GSD does not exist any longer.
I cannot seem to seperate the issue of show and work and have this talk about protection in the Sieger Show.

Siegers sucks and will for many years because when it comes down to why? you will find $$$$$ at the end.

All you have to look at is the price of those showlines! Are they for real?

What is interesting is that not ONE of those handlers came out and thought "I'm going to show how a dog is supposed to heel properly, I'm going to show others how having "control" of your dog is supposed to look like...
It's like they all agreed to look like sh.t, not one stood off from the others!! They all sucked equally..
To be honest I am tired of all the organizations, last year I watched a trial at the other Club here in Vegas) that was so bad I had to leave, the judge was from Germany, could not speak English, I won't mention names but a handler and his dog came on the field for an OB 1 and his dog took off to attack another dog, He was still allowed to trial, and did half of the exercises and got a 90s' score. Then the dog going for his Schutz one, did a poor job and the dog came off the sleeve on the escape and got a 80s' score. I lost respect for the sport that day.. I love the sport and want to see it get better but seeing stuff like that is very disappointing...

Michael:

I think that you have hit the nail on the head with your post. The show breeders also want to breed puppies that they have a ready and willing market of potential purchasers who wish to buy the pups that they breed. Quite a few folks stand in line to buy showline dogs for their own reasons (a number of these dogs are easier for novices to handle, many are placed in purely pet homes, many of the purchasers have no interest in titling a dog in any working discipline and some simply like the looks of the showline dogs). The continued popularity of the showline dogs indicates that a huge number of people want them. From a pure economic standpoint I don't see why a showline breeder who has continued success in their chosen show format would desire to change a formula that has worked for them as a business. They obviously are not motivated by the working performance aspects of the breed.

I think that you are correct that separate forms of competition for pure working line dogs will separate the lines and delineate the differences between showline and working line dogs. The same thing has occurred with the AKC with sporting breeds in particular. If you see the difference in looks and field ability between AKC bench show sporting dogs that basically are bred to trot around a ring and look pretty and compare them to field trial dogs that are bred entirely to hunt for performance without regard to looks (i.e. field trial setters of any of the setter breeds and field trial retrievers such as Labrador and Golden Retrievers in particular) don't look like, act like or move like the AKC bench show specimens. The completely overweight, overgrown, fat Labradors that you see at the AKC shows could not keep up with the much smaller, sleeker, totally hunt crazy Labs that are field trial bred dogs that can literally work all day and never get tired. The Golden Retrievers at AKC shows have such long, thick superfluous coats that they'd probably drown if they attempted to swim. They are basically different breeds. You could go back many generations before you would find a common ancestor in their pedigrees. The same seems to be happening with the German showline dogs vs. the working line dogs. In fact it looks like it has happened. It's not unusual when beauty is placed above performance. It's also not the end of the world because both can peacefully co-exist and the fans of each line of these dogs can follow whichever line they prefer.

This is certainly and interesting thread. As a working dog enthusiast I can appreciate any breed of dog that actually does the work and is for real. I own working line GSD's myself and I am a USA Decoy. What I saw on the videos is in no way shape or form "pronounced courage" from any of the dogs I viewed.

After going to the SCH USA Nationals in Atlanta and watching Lotus Perkins in person, he would have run all of these dogs off the field with the pressure that he is capable of bringing on his drives and stick hits. I have to agree with Will Rambeau on this one, he himself could run these dogs off in the blind with a welders mask on sitting in a lawn chair. -No need to count the carbs.

I know for a fact that the protection judge at the Nationals would have said that the dogs shown in the video have "Insufficient nerve structure to be competing in a National Event". And he said just that to a competitor over the loud speaker that was lacking courage in the C Phase in Atlanta 2007. Basically saying that the dog does not belong here and you know it, thanks for coming but no need to come back here with that dog. -The truth hurts.

This topic has produced more questions than it does answers though really. Such as:

1) Why dont we ever see any showlines at the SCH USA Nationals competing? These are SCH III Dogs right? -Show everyone what your dog can do in a National SCH Trial, enlighten us.

2) What judges are GIVING these dogs the title of SCH III and pronounced courage? -This should be something that is earned, the Holy Grail of Schutzhund Ratings in your scorebook.

3) For a National event like the Sieger show, shouldnt there be a National Level Decoy there that can test the dogs just as they are at the SCH USA Nationals? -You cant have it both ways, the dogs have to be tested the same and they are not. After all these are SCH III Dogs right? -On paper anyway.

4) The origin of the GSD and the aim of the breed itself was for the dog to remain a true working dog, not a show dog. No one said that your working dog has to be ugly, but it should do the job that it was created to do and this includes having courage. Dogs lacking courage should never be bred, it only gets worse as it gets watered down through the bloodlines.

But since most people are naive when they go to buy a dog, they will see a VA rating with pronounced courage on the pedigree. These people will be cheated out of getting a puppy that should have those qualities that the parent is "said" to have shown.

This is a sad event for the breed of German Shepherd Dogs. The people that facilitate these type of events should have some guilt inside their heart about making the breed weaker and not improving upon it. -No showlines in the Malinois. Your chances of getting a healthy working Malinois with good hips are excellent. -Ask the Police K9 Units.

Max predicted this a long time ago: Money is the true root of most things evil including German Shepherd Dogs. Amazing that 100 years later his prediction has come true.

 Quote: christine garrit

Michael:


. The continued popularity of the showline dogs indicates that a huge number of people want them. From a pure economic standpoint
I don't see why a showline breeder who has continued success in their chosen show format would desire to change a formula that has worked for them as a business. They obviously are not motivated by the working performance aspects of the breed.
It's not unusual when beauty is placed above performance. It's also not the end of the world because both can peacefully co-exist and the fans of each line of these dogs can follow whichever line they prefer.

Christine:
THE POINT IS "THE FORMULA" IS NOT WORKING!!! LITERALLY!
The Shepherd was not created for BEAUTY, it is a magnificent breed that has the ability to be so dual in it's work, matures quick ,no other breed is like a shepherd when it comes to "work"
With the showline, any breed can outmatch it at this point , our young pups (in our Club) can bite harder then those adult male showline you saw on the video and that is VERY SAD...Your Min-pin could probably bite harder then those dogs! and that should be of no concern?

Art ,I so agree with you...well written

I'm not saying that the current state of showline dogs is of no concern. I am saying that large commercial breeders are in business and the reality is that they will produce what people want to buy. I'm not in favor of watering down a breed to sell puppies, but I seriously doubt that a large commercial breeder who has been successful in their field will seriously consider changing a formula that's been working for them financially. They won't change unless the entire system changes and if they are controlling the system through the control of the judging and through the control of the governance of the association by holding the officer and board seats then the workings of the organization won't change.

I don't know if all of the ills of the showline dogs can be blamed on the U.S. based organizations. Aren't a lot of the dogs shown in the U.S. acquired from Germany and actually "earned" their titles in Germany under German judges? How effective is the German judging system for showline dogs if a number of their titled imports are sold to American showline kennels and then shown and bred here? Some of the dogs on the videos at the USA Sieger Show were German imports and titled there. I think that some of those dogs were roundly criticized on this site. If the judging is so much better in Germany then how did this happen? This whole problem may have started in Germany with the SV and must have had a trickle down effect to the U.S. and probably other countries as well. It just seems that the showline folks and the working line folks are worlds apart, just as far apart as the field trial breeders of sporting dogs are from AKC bench show "fanciers". The field trial guys have their own events that are held by a different organization from the AKC and they maintain their own stud books and registries in addition to the AKC registry to differentiate themselves from the showline dogs. It looks like the working line GSD is well on its way to do the same thing to differentiate from the showline dogs.

You're right about my Min Pin. I bet my Min Pin can bite harder than some GSDs. He's got a lot of drive,he's truly courageous, and he's not afraid to bite!