Quote: john j. miller

What the OP is dealing with is completely "out there"! If what is being described is actually happening something is very wrong with this dogs wiring.

If a thorough health checkup determined that this dog was perfectly healthy, then I see two possible causes.

The dog has bad nerves, and is aggressive.
OR
The dog is aggressive, especially about his flanks.

Aggression does seem odd at this age, but then again, one our male Boxers starting showing signs of sexual maturity and dominance at 8 months.
This was when I was in Jr High, and my mom had the dog neutered and took him into thorough obedience with Ron Pace. This stopped the problem, and he was a very sweet dog from there out.
Then again, the aggression was no where NEAR this level.


The closest I've ever seen to this sort of behavior, is flank aggression, in 3+ year old Military Working Dogs.

Sometimes if I am too close to the crate and haven't gotten his leed off yet he will start to growl, a couple of times I couldn't even take the prong collar or leed off him because he was baring teeth and snarling so I just threw it in the crate with him.

If I take the prong collar off as soon as I come in from a walk I have no problem. Also if I remove the leed about 2-3' from the crate he will just go in. Sometimes he starts to growl as he is going in, but not every time.

When I had his cage in the livingroom he would growl at me when I came back into the room after 30 min. I thought they lived in the moment.

His body language is stiff, he bares teeth, snarles, barks and shakes his head a couple of times as if he had water in his ears.
He is like Jekel and Hide or bipolar or something.

 Quote:

In a wolf pack, the alpha wolf eats his fill, and then he leaves the kill, and lets the lower wolves eat in peace. He doesn't hang around screwing with them

While this is mostly true, because of the wording used (wolves don't "screw with" each other) the alpha wolf does tend to eat while lower ranking members are eating. The alpha pair does not totally take over the kill and make the other members not eat, they eat based on kill size and rank. The alpha pair eats a specific portion of the kill, the internal organs and gut, as it gives them the strongest scent. They eat and the wolves in rank below them eat in their designated places around the rest of the kill *at the same time*. If a wolf attempts to eat what it shouldn't, it gets reminded where it needs to be by whichever higher ranking pack member it is encroaching upon. The alphas do not just eat their fill and walk away, only allowing other pack members to eat after they are gone.

There are a few misconceptions regarding wolves and eating that I usually do not address because there are some very strong opinions on the matter. Alphas DO take food and items from lower ranking pack members. Alphas DO move other pack members away from a kill in an aggressive manner after leaving and coming back.

Many people adhere to the idea that alphas do not mess with other pack members once they have their food. If another pack member shows aggression towards an alpha over food there will be a problem. The alpha does not back down just because its full, if the alpha was just walking by sniffing the other pack member and got a face full of teeth for it there would be a fight.

Any time a dog shows aggression over food towards the handler it is a pack structure issue. Lower ranking pack members DO NOT SHOW AGGRESSION TOWARDS AN ALPHA WITHOUT REPERCUSSIONS. Now I have nothing against prevention of issues in feeding a dog alone in its crate, but when faced with a dog that is growling or snarling or snapping, if you do nothing about it you are not being a pack leader/alpha. Any aggression in that manner is a challenge and backing down is submitting. You can do every other pack structure exercise there is but allowing aggression towards the handler will still have an effect on the general picture.

For handlers that cannot or will not deal with it I always suggest crating the dog to be fed. Some dogs are too much for the handler, the handler may not have the experience to deal with the issue and prevention is the best route. But there will always be that potential and you limit yourself in what you can do when your do is being fed.

If your dog is food aggressive and you take the prevention route, you will a problem removing your dog from its food. If something winds up in your dogs bowl that it should not have, you will have problems getting that item back. Food aggression can quickly and easily transfer to possessiveness over the food bowl, possessivenes over the crate, possessiveness over chewies, to possessiveness over prey items/toys etc. This is something that needs to be kept in mind when choosing how to deal with food aggression.

Sorry to have hijacked this thread but I was compelled to address the talk of wolves and pack structure.

Regarding William, I would really need to see this to know how to address it. There is too much going on that we cannot see in these situations that prevents the best advice given. I recommend you have a trainer or behaviorist experienced in aggression come to evaluate you and the dog.

I do think that you have made some very good decisions, implementing pack structure is always a great thing, and you are on the right track. But what sounds like defensive behavior about handler proximity to hindquarters or guarding of crate could be something completely different, or the handler is unknowingly giving off cues and body language that is triggering an aggressive response from the dog.

Regarding defensiveness about hindquarters, if the dog does not show this behavior except for when in the crate then it is not a generalized defensiveness. Does the dog have a tail? Has his tail ever been accidentally shut in the crate door? Has a hindfoot ever been caught in the crate door on accident?

That's all I've got for now, it's 102 and climbing and I can't think anymore

 Quote: Karen Flynn

He only shows this aggression inside the apartment over bones or when I put him in the crate.

This crate business started when he was about 6 months old and he has been crate trained since I got him at 3 months old.

According to Karen, her pup started exhibiting this odd crate behavior at 6 months old. Very young for such aggression...
Could it have been caused by 1 or 2 bad experiences going into the crate (tail or foot being pinched, etc)?

It just seems like the rest of his issues can be explained by pack leader issues (growling over bones,or when on the couch etc).

Yep... I think we've about run the gambit on what we can do on an online forum.

There are just way too many variables.

Like Jennifer said, you need a good trainer to come into the home.

Karen and i should hopefully be able to meet up sometime around the end of this week so that i can observe some of these behaviors in person ... i hope that after that i can offer some more information to this thread to get some more thoughts and ideas!

until then, i think she and i both have received some very good info to work with

it really sounds as though William is being territorial of his crate, and i'm starting to wonder if perhaps simply switching crates might have any effect? it all comes down to being able to see the behavior in action, so hopefully that will happen soon.

Kacie, I just started working with a 5 mo old Bull terrier that was exhibiting severe aggression since the age of 3 months. At 4 months he was giving his owner stitches. He was very crate territorial, and food aggressive.
After 3 weeks of meeting with them, he came home with me for private, in my home training.
The strange environment allowed me to take advantage of his "on his best behavior" while figuring things out. The aggression never happened while he was here, and things were switched up a bit for him as well. I had him in an indoor/outdoor run, with daily walks and twice daily OB sessions.
When the week was up, he went home to a new crate, in a new part of the house, and he is now being fed away from the crate, on the back porch.
So far, that has worked for him acclimating back into the house, and his owners report no aggression at all. In fact, his behavior has been amazing.
I also used the time to adjust him to using a muzzle, which they put on for vet appointments, nail trimmings, and bathing as a preventative.
Just thought I'd share, maybe some of those same things will work for this guy. The ages of aggression, and level are very similar, as are the dominance behaviors.

Hey Kacie,

This morning I took William out of his crate for a walk, when we returned I took off the prong collar and brought him to the kitchen for water. My daughter left her dogs food in a bowl on the floor so William ate it while on the leed with me standing there. I let him eat it being he really hasn't been eating his food when I give it to him in the crate.

I grabed a couple of milk bones and took him back to his crate, let him off the leed and threw the milk bones into the crate before he went in. He walked right in and started to eat the bones, I closed the crate there was NO growling.

Before I left for work I took him out again because he didn't poo the first time and I wanted to give him another chance. I did the same thing with the bones and NO growling. I don't know what to think.

Karen
I remember you saying that you gave him a bone to chew on in his crate I would remove it with the next walk. The rest of the aggression was over bones you didn’t know he had why give him something we know he is possessive over in his crate.

Cameron you just gave me an idea.

What do yall think about playing musical chairs with his crate? Every time you take him out for a walk have someone else move the crate behind you. I think this would make him less dependent on his crate as a source of strength.

I would also turn the crate upside down every other time that’s if it is a plastic one. If you can afford to get another crate right now try swapping them out. Karen what type of crate are you using if it’s a wire one do you have a covering over it. If so try taking it off. My Greta looks like you just destroyed her home if you make her lay in her crate with out the cover over it.

The whole point to this exercise would be to make the dog feel unsure of his environment. Giving you a chance to really change the rules on him.

My view point is I crate a dog because of my benefit not the dog's benefit. If that wasn't the case I would throw the crate in the trash, but I don’t want the dog to chew my couch so I crate them. I own the crate it is mine I allow him in it.