Quote: Ira Victor

I wish I could do that. He doesn't have a favorite toy. He likes to play indoors, and he has plenty of toys to choose from, but outdoors he was never really interested in playing with anything for more than a minute or so. The last couple of days, though, he's shown an interest in the smaller-sized orange highway cone I bought him at Lowe's. He runs around the yard now, playing with it like a puppy should, instead of looking for things to eat.

Here is something you could try.

No free access to any toys. All toys are given and put up by you after play time.
Allowing a dog free access to anything can/will cause lower motivation when training.
Basically, if the dog has access to it whenever he wants, why should he want to WORK for it?


Does that make sense?

 Quote: ira victor

Gently, with no threats and no correction other than removing the rocks.

How do you threaten a dog?

I'm more than happy to give you advice that works with dogs- but none of the advice given here will work unless you put it into practice, and you keep in mind that this is a DOG.
They don't think like we do- period.

"Now this is the Law of the Jungle -- as old and as true as the sky;
And the Wolf that shall keep it may prosper, but the Wolf that shall break it must die.
As the creeper that girdles the tree-trunk the Law runneth forward and back --
For the strength of the Pack is the Wolf, and the strength of the Wolf is the Pack."

Ira, try going back to basics with him, on leash or crate at all times, no interactions with anyone but you. NO free access to toys, they all belong to you and you allow the pup to play with them at times that you choose. If the pup doesn't show interest, put him up in the crate and don't push the toy on him.

A dog is hard wired to pull against pressure. You pull on him, he will pull back, every time.

It's when we either make it clear to the pup that we will rip it's head off unless it follows meekly behind us (crank and yank method of training) or we are really really fun to be next to because we have the magical ability to produce toys and treats all the time.

Some of the things you have written about both dogs make it kind of inevitable that your new pup will end up being just like the older one with regards to toys - uninterested unless some other dog has them.

Please dont' take any of my posts as critical, I was where you are at one point too, and I have had many wakeup calls on many occasions with regards to my training methods.

Many of the people who are writing you are professional trainers, who do this for a living. The ability to recognize problem behaviors from others are what set us apart from people who are not trainers (and from some "trainers" who are not very good at what they do)

We all wish the best for you and your pup and your other dog as well. If we didn't care, we wouldn't bother to write, and there would be no forum.

There are many many posts just like yours (once you learn the archive reading/search feature there is a TON of info that would be useful to you) and the reason we continue to answer many of the same questions from topic to topic is because we care. I hope that things start to be easier for you, and that you are able to expand your training and behavior knowledge.

 Quote: cameron feathers

Ira, try going back to basics with him, on leash or crate at all times, no interactions with anyone but you. NO free access to toys, they all belong to you and you allow the pup to play with them at times that you choose. If the pup doesn't show interest, put him up in the crate and don't push the toy on him....

...Some of the things you have written about both dogs make it kind of inevitable that your new pup will end up being just like the older one with regards to toys - uninterested unless some other dog has them.

Please dont' take any of my posts as critical, I was where you are at one point too, and I have had many wakeup calls on many occasions with regards to my training methods.

I understand, and I'm not at all offended or hurt. I realize you guys know more than I do.

I still think I'm not being clear, though... he has no problem getting interested in toys indoors, where the crate is. It's outdoors, where I can't crate him, that he shows no interest. He does have a bunch of toys on the grass, and I could pick them all up except one, but he doesn't seem to care about them anyway out there so I doubt if he'd really care. Although, like I said, he's started to show interest in a cone so that's a good thing.

As for the retriever, she does like her toys, she's just not as steady on her feet as she was and she walks to get something rather than runs. She has more energy outdoors, so with all due respect, you're wrong when you say she's "uninterested unless some other dog has them." When I'm playing with him, she brings her own toy to play. She doesn't want his, he wants the one she brings. And if she's playing with a toy alone, without fetching it, he leaves her alone.

The fact is, except for him not letting her fetch, we have a happy and enjoyable life here, for all of us, including the pup and the older dog. Sure, he makes mistakes, and so do I, but now that he's pretty much stopped eating rocks (it's been 3 days!) there's hardly any stress here anymore. Just to help her a little more, though, I've started crating him more often. They both like to play together but she gets tired before he does, so if I can't divert him to play with me, I'll crate him.

I don't hard-correct him or grab his neck and make him squeak anymore because, other than the few times I mentioned, I haven't had to. It's like a little light went off in his head and he just decided to listen.

I think he was just being stubborn. He's always accepted me as his alpha. Although he's extremely food-driven, he never begs when I'm eating, he just lies at my feet until I'm done and go to clean up. The other day I grilled a steak, put it on a plate, set it down on the coffee table in the living room about 5 feet from where he was lying, went back into the kitchen, and watched him from around the corner. He just lay there and drooled, but he didn't make a move for it. He never growls at me or openly challenges me, I stick my hand in his food bowl while he's eating to condition him, and he never gives me any authority issues except for eating rocks. He's not afraid of me, either. He loves to play, and he constantly wants to play tug-of-war, but at this stage I don't think that's a good idea. He already has a good prey drive without me cranking it up any further.

Anyway, if things keep going the way they are at the moment, we'll all be happy. Do you still see anything wrong? I'm not being sarcastic, if someone still feels there's a problem I'm glad to listen, and thanks for all of the advice!

Ira, I'm not a trainer, just a pet owner, but if you are happy with the greater part of their interactions now, then why not tether him for a short time while you play fetch with your old girl?

Him watching, safely tethered, will give her a chance to play uninterrupted, and may make him really keen to play with you when it's his turn...

Ira, you say this:

 Quote: ira victor

As for the retriever, she does like her toys, she's just not as steady on her feet as she was and she walks to get something rather than runs. She has more energy outdoors, so with all due respect, you're wrong when you say she's "uninterested unless some other dog has them."

I'm sure that Cameron read this:
Quote "Despite all the talk about crating and keeping them separate, as I said in my first post she doesn't WANT to play if I'm not playing with him. She wants to join in once the play with him has started. If I crate him, she doesn't want to play anymore."End Quote
the same way I did, that your Golden was only interested in playing unless your were playing with your Rottie.
It seems to me you do seem determined to pretty much reject all the (very good) advice everyone here is trying to give you.
At least, after just reading all the posts on this thread, that's how it strikes me.
Maybe I am misunderstanding your posts.
I think the tethering the Rottie while playing fetch with your retriever is a good suggestion.
And I'm glad that your Rottie is no longer trying to eat rocks. I don't completely agree with your technique to stop him, as I personally prefer re-direction and have gotten very good results that way with my dogs when they were pups. It just took patience and lots of repetition. Not holding them on the ground by their scruff until they squeaked.

 Quote: ira victor

He does have a bunch of toys on the grass, and I could pick them all up except one, but he doesn't seem to care about them anyway out there so I doubt if he'd really care. Although, like I said, he's started to show interest in a cone so that's a good thing.

As the saying goes- you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone.

The dog ain't interested, because he takes 'em for granted.
Make ALL the toys disappear, and believe me, his attitude will change dramatically.

Why do you think he gets interested in toys when another dog has 'em? "Oh crap, they're stealing my toy!"

You've got a pup that's not too much different from a spoiled rich kid. So much excess, that he's not even interested in it.

The little turd in the picture below, absolutely goes nuts for her toys. You know why? The only time toys come out, is when it's time to play and have a blast. They don't just lay around, inanimate and accessible, to be taken for granted.

The only toy my dog has control over, is her crate Kong, which is always left in her crate. If she wants to chew on it, or play with it, she is free to go in her crate and enjoy her Kong.

And you know what- she could care less about her crate Kong. It gets taken for granted, because it's always there.

 Quote: Janice Jarman

I'm sure that Cameron read this:

I'm sure she did. I realize, after the fact, I wasn't clear in the beginning. That's why I kept saying that folks seemed to think there was a bigger problem than there was.

It's my fault for being ambiguous, I'm sorry!

No worries, but hopefully, Ira, we've given you some things to think about...
Also: when your pup was playing with the rocks, do you see how easily it can associate that you don't want him to PLAY because you corrected him rather than giving him something that he CAN play with in exchange? Pups bounce back, and continue to play with other things because that is how they are, but continuing to punish the pup for playing (no matter how innappropriate the item is) will only result in the pup grabbing an item, slinking off quietly to hide from you, or you will end up with a dog that just simply doesn't want to play, or doesn't want to play with you. If you can try always having a suitable toy WITH you when the pup is out, you can produce it at those moments to re-direct the pup into playing with something more appropriate than the rocks or whatever it finds later on in life.

 Quote: cameron feathers

Also: when your pup was playing with the rocks, do you see how easily it can associate that you don't want him to PLAY because you corrected him rather than giving him something that he CAN play with in exchange?

But I did... I tried sticks, balls, toys, frisbees, but he wasn't interested. He was fixated on looking for small rocks and chewing them, and he wouldn't be distracted by toys or anything else. He wasn't playing with the rocks, he was chewing them and I could hear it from 10 feet away. I'm just glad he still has his puppy teeth!

Anyway, we had another couple of good play periods today and he only picked up one rock (he was forgiven for that one with a simple "No").

Again, I appreciate the advice, even if I sound ungrateful at times. I'm not, really!