Thanks, Richard... that's what I wanted to say, but couldn't think of a way of saying it without sounding overbearing.

Anyway, as to the "emotional" aspect, I get along very well with this dog and we enjoy spending time together. I am looking for ways to modify what, for lack of any better terminology, we will term "drive behaviors".

Pete

Pete,

One thing I think I learned with my Giant is that dogs will pick up context as easily as what you want them to do. As a result of what we did with him as a puppy it has shaped his behavior as an adult. For instance, we never played ball or any other prey type games with him any where but at home. We did have him play with other dogs in the park at training. He now will not play with his toys at the park or training much, he will play with other dogs in the park. I didn't have him play prey games with other people than me or my wife so we have had a problem getting to "play" prey games with an agitator.

With my new puppy I handled it much differently. We played with tugs and balls at the park when we went to train. I had other people play with her with a tug from an early age. I believe that this has shaped her behavior in the protection training area because she knows she is allowed to play these games with other people and does with gusto.

This is the reason I believe context for play, both the prey object and the people, makes a difference in teaching the dog what you want them to do.

Hey... if you guys are happy with the old-style approach to training... more power to ya.

You bet, Richard, that if I could have gotten this girl at eight weeks of age I would have done a LOT of things differently. But now I have to try to undo the damage of what amounts to a year of total training neglect (she only knew how to "shake", remember? :rolleyes: ).

There would be no real challenge here if I just wanted to wind up with a companionable pet. But I'm dealing with a dog that is a phenomenally gifted natural tracker, and I want to make sure that I don't do anything to dampen her urge to track (BTW she seems very happy and driven on the footstep tracks I've been laying for her too).

Dave--ok ok, I'm not much of a theorist and probably sound pretty old-school. I am, however, SERIOUSLY looking over some of what you've posted on hard-surface tracking. I have already seen evidence that Cal can follow scent very well on hard surfaces.

My continued thanks to both of you...

Pete

Dave wrote: "I've been researching this topic for several years now and have come to the conclusion that "drives" are emotions.... plain and simple."

You wanna explain that to me big guy?

Being horny is an emotion? Being hungry is an emotion? Having a bug zip by your face and reacting by squinting and flinching is an emotion? Is scratching an itch an emotion?

And supposing this theory of yours is a good one, how is this going to effect the way I train dogs?

Maybe the theory of emotions isn’t so new. Konrad Most writes;” The dog most closely resembles man in his emotional and instinctive reflexes. He is capable of showing his emotions very eloquently and his manner of expressing his feelings is clearly reflected in our own.” And he goes on to write “……….. teaching suited both to the emotional and to the instinctive life of the animal.” The two are separated.
The problem for dog training may be when emotions are misinterpreted and the dog is mistaken to have human understanding and morals. Understanding and utilizing instincts and drives separate our feelings from emotions during training so that our expectations do not exceed the dog’s ability to learn.

Pete - I know you are getting better suggestions from the educated dog trainers on this board but at the risk of embarassing myself completely I'll throw in my two cents(1.5 cents Cdn). If she finds the ball boring when there are interesting animal scents around maybe you could try making the ball a little more interesting by wrapping a strip of uncured skin(with the fur on) around the ball- something dogs usually like, maybe a piece of rabbit skin. Sometimes just the presense of fur triggers something in dogs and they will want it bad. Once she is a little more ball interested you could eliminate the fur. You could cut a slit in the ball too and just stuff a little piece of hide inside to make it more interesting to the dog. I'm probably way off base posting this but I'll do it anyway - somebody might need the laugh. I just thought of it as I was watching my dogs play with the legs and hide pieces of a sheep. This is the only time they will engage me in a game of tug is when it is hide or something. They have never been corrected for playing with a ball but would not play with one unless you rolled it in hamburger first. Real fur = real toy to them -they'll only play with something that looks like dinner leftovers(which in this case is was).

VanCamp... I have no idea what the point of your comment is. Of course being hungry creates an emotion... that emotion stimulates the individual to act... ever take high school biology? Chemical and electrical impulses are sent to the brain to create an emotion.

How will this help training?... The oversimplified answer is that trainers using emotional manipulation are not limited to a small number of drives... prey, defense etc. Also, unlike instincts or drives... emotions can be CREATED as well as manipulated.

Example...with a dog that lacks focus or is performing lazy obedience but doesn't care about the ball or food... we can manipulate its emotions by keeping it in a formal down (platz) for several minutes so that it WANTS to get up and move quickly....we have created a boredom emotion and used it to motivate the dog.

Dave,

Same theory, different terms. You call it needs (ala Mazlow's heiarchy of needs {No dogs won't get to self actualization}). You can define the terms many different ways, it still comes out the same. "A rose by another name........"

Richard... if this were only about terms and definitions... I would not have mentioned it. However, it has changed the way I train so I thought it worth mentioning.

Many people on this board do not see the importance of anything that isn't blatantly obvious... but there are a few who try to learn everything they can... it is to those few that I address my posts.

Some board members have contacted me privately to obtain further information because they don't wish to be ridiculed by those who scoff at anything that they don't immediately understand.

I'm not sure what "Mazlow's hiearchy" is... however, I am familiar with Abraham Maslow and his theory of human motivation that involves a hierarchy of needs.