Mike, I get what you're saying, and your posts are always good.

I should be clear - I used the prong on her pretty well immediately from when I adopted her (13 months ago) until 6 or 8 weeks ago. I'd worked with her very consistently about my behavioural expectations and obedience. I haven't been going back and forth with collars.

Because she was behaving so beautifully, I started to move from using the prong. I wanted to know that she really was trained, not just responding to the collar.

She did sit slower and was less picture-perfect with heeling when we first moved to the martingale only outside on our walks. She did, at certain times, not focus as well with only the prong in the presence of other dogs.

I did, however, keep working with her, and now she is back to picture-perfect heeling and good response times when we are outside walking with the martingale. She can maintain my commands when there are other dogs.

That said, there are moments - I've mentioned it before in this thread, but the 4 dogs in 5 minutes, and her breaking her heel when she sighted the last dog. Do I think she would've done so if she was wearing a prong? Maybe not. Would she have popped back quicker than she did if she was wearing a prong? Probably. Was I able to maintain control and refocus her onto heeling? Yes.

I guess too....maybe I have made it sound like she is out-of-control? She's actually a very well-behaved dog. She responds to my commands. She is good with the other dogs I own.

The reason why I initially started this thread, is because while she is obedient, I know she is still aggressive. And I would like her not to be aggressive. I think it's stressful mentally and physically.

When I say she has an aggressive reaction, she's not necessarily not obeying me. The two aren't mutually exclusive. I can have her sit quietly or keep on heeling if we site another dog. She will. But I can also feel the tremendous amount of aggressive energy that is in her while she is doing so.

But I guess what I was and am getting from this thread is that - no matter how well she obeys me in our current circumstances, the fact is, she does need to be leashed. I don't think, off-leash, that she would refrain from attacking if that is what she wanted to do. And because of that, she doesn't respect me. ETA: And in that regard, I don't have anything else.

 Quote: mike arnold

... Start all over again at square one. Put your command set plan back together and train through it, with emphasis on quick verbal sound cues or finger snaps or a Ceasar "sssst" or whatever to cue refocus in the dog. ... Get you out of that bathroom stall.... train the dog and don't compare it to other dogs..... if the dog responds to your commands promptly - count your blessings. That in itself is a big deal. .... The trick is not to give up and to be consistent in your pursuit of a result.

Another trick is to compare where you are now with where you were, say, a year ago.

That "respect" word is suspect for me, too, because if it's not about fear (and it often is, as in "I'll teach you to respect me, you stubborn...."), then it's usually something nebulous and not dog-relevant. This is strictly MHO, of course.

If I lead and the dogs follow, that is what I consider to be the dog version of respect.

I too would say to get out of that bathroom and put your shoulders back. I am fully aware of how many people are going to dismiss this as "wacky California weirdo stuff," but I agree a million percent with Cesar Millan when he suggests to us that we picture in our minds only the results we want.

It reminds me of a few times when I knew that I might get bitten. I learned to stop, focus on the result I want, stand tall, and THEN start working with the dog.

QUOTE: i have been working the same way with her for months - probably over half a year - in terms of trying to give her tools/something positive to do instead of aggression. i've been doing NILIF and other regular obedience and exercise with her since i got her. i can only keep on doing it. ...END

And am I mistaken in thinking that the half-year has been productive?

QUOTE: But I guess what I was and am getting from this thread is that - no matter how well she obeys me in our current circumstances, the fact is, she does need to be leashed. I don't think, off-leash, that she would refrain from attacking if that is what she wanted to do. And because of that, she doesn't respect me. END

..... because of that, she doesn't respect me.

Does not follow.

Your leadership (and her follower-ship) are works in progress. And I'm not sure why you think that the dog does not "respect" you if the dog's drive is not 100% subdued by a glance from you.

Also, just to note, I think I will go back to using the prong, and Mike, I will sit down tonight and look over what I'm doing with her and maybe look at how I can change what I'm doing when we have heavy distraction. I think that's a good idea. I just don't think I'm going to bother with the elusive respect, I don't think I can achieve that with her.

 Quote: jennifer mullen

I just don't think I'm going to bother with the elusive respect, I don't think I can achieve that with her.

Wrong.

"I don't think that word is required when I define my goals."

 Quote: connie sutherland

Another trick is to compare where you are now with where you were, say, a year ago.

Well, a year ago she would go after me and bite me if I picked a toy up off the floor.

A year ago she would stare down every large dog she saw and go after them if they didn't back away or sit down/shut up. She doesn't do that now (I don't let her. It doesn't come up the same way, though if I wasn't there, I'm sure that would be her impulse).

A year ago she wanted to go after all the small dogs and didn't listen to me when she saw them.

A year ago she stared down everyone we met.

A year ago she expected to intimidate every dog we met by sheer eye power and force of personality. Now, she's far more cued into me.

A year ago she ignored every single command I gave her.

 Quote: connie sutherland

That "respect" word is suspect for me, too, because if it's not about fear (and it often is, as in "I'll teach you to respect me, you stubborn...."), then it's usually something nebulous and not dog-relevant. This is strictly MHO, of course.

If I lead and the dogs follow, that is what I consider to be the dog version of respect.

I too would say to get out of that bathroom and put your shoulders back. I am fully aware of how many people are going to dismiss this as "wacky California weirdo stuff," but I agree a million percent with Cesar Millan when he admonishes us to picture in our minds only the results we want.

It reminds me of a few times when I knew that I might get bitten. I learned to stop, focus on the result I want, stand tall, and THEN start working with the dog.

I actually agree with this, b/c I've done it with her and I think it's what's made the biggest difference. I learned to handle her partly through visualization - I visualized situations, what I would do, and what she would do (be a good girl, ha). And it really worked.

And I do it now to. When I'm out with her, I make sure I project a casual expectation of behaviour, totally relaxed. The attitude that her not behaving is the furthest thing from my mind b/c it just doesn't happen. And it really makes a difference in how she responds to me.

 Quote: connie sutherland

QUOTE: i have been working the same way with her for months - probably over half a year - in terms of trying to give her tools/something positive to do instead of aggression. i've been doing NILIF and other regular obedience and exercise with her since i got her. i can only keep on doing it. ...END

And am I mistaken in thinking that the half-year has been productive?

It has been productive. And I've liked doing it b/c I feel like it creates and cements us as a team, like we're working together towards something, instead of against each other.

 Quote: connie sutherland

QUOTE: But I guess what I was and am getting from this thread is that - no matter how well she obeys me in our current circumstances, the fact is, she does need to be leashed. I don't think, off-leash, that she would refrain from attacking if that is what she wanted to do. And because of that, she doesn't respect me. END

QUOTE: And because of that, she doesn't respect me. END

Does not follow.

Your leadership (and her follower-ship) are works in progress.

And I'm not sure why you think that the dog does not "respect" you if the dog's drive is not 100% subdued by a glance from you.

I guess it just seemed like, no matter how good I can get her to be - I don't ever expect her to be trustworthy off-leash around strange dogs. Honestly. And I guess, if I can't climb that mountain with her, than - there's something lacking there. But maybe not. However discouraged I get about myself though, I would never give up working with her. She's my angel....(nobody else's idea of an angel, I know)

 Quote: Jennifer Mullen

no matter how good I can get her to be - I don't ever expect her to be trustworthy off-leash around strange dogs. ....

That may be true.

So?

Nothing besides a perfection that may not even be possible with this dog is worthy of celebration?

We'd better just quit, then .... all of us.

Fine, fine, I'll stop wallowing in my self-pity

It is frustrating sometimes, obviously. The thing that makes me the most sad is that other people can't see past her issues and see what a wonderfully sweet dog she is, and how stable she is in every other regard.

I guess too, I've worked so hard to try to be her leader. She challenged me so much. I just felt like b/c I can't (or don't think I can) get her past that, I'm not really being a leader for her. That thought was/is just highly depressing

 Quote: Jennifer Mullen

Fine, fine, I'll stop wallowing in my self-pity

Well, good. I won't have to break out the slapping gloves.

 Quote: Jennifer Mullen

... I guess too, I've worked so hard to try to be her leader. She challenged me so much. I just felt like b/c I can't (or don't think I can) get her past that, I'm not really being a leader for her.

But again, compare now to a year ago.

Was there some kind of deadline?

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

 Quote: Jennifer Mullen

Fine, fine, I'll stop wallowing in my self-pity

Well, good. I won't have to break out the slapping gloves.

Slapping, spanking..... quite the little vixen there Connie.