Slamming Collin?
I may be discouraging him of breeding his dog in the mind set he started this thread with. But I, along with others here, have encouraged Collin to study the field of breeding if breeding is his interest.
And as to your exception about what a pedigree's worth is; I submit that knowledegeble people can discount fully half of the dogs, in any discipline you care to name, for breeding material with one look at that afterthought called a pedigree. Thats irrespective of how the dog performs it's duties.
And further more, I'll bet the ratio of not suitable climbs considerably higher when talking about the most demanding venues like the ring sports. Just on the strenght of that family tree.


I'm not slamming Collin, only trying to help him make the right decision.

Keep studying Collin.
Randy

PS.
What I wanted to throw out for a number of unsuitable breeding stock on paper was 75%, But it's probably higher.
Hmmm, interesting. Anyone have a real number?

Some common catch-phrases come to mind which I've heard from a number of credible breeders:

-Breed the extreme to get the norm...

-Expect the puppies to NOT be as good as the parents...

-The best puppy in a litter can grow up to produce his worst sibling...

That should be enough to scare most people away from breeding.

And the odds that the dog someone gets for breeding, before he thinks about training, is the representative whose genes need to be passed on....they gotta be pretty small. You'd think. How can one possibly know what he's looking for other than through the physical/mental attrition of working the snot out many, many dogs?

 Quote:

As for Kingston's pedigree not appealing to anyone on this board - at the end of the day, I would want to see Kingston be appealing. I don't care if his background was comprised solely of SchH 3 rotties, I want to see what Kingston is made of. If Kingston turns out to be a phenomenal rottie performance wise and has the appropriate health clearances, perhaps breeding him is a possibility. But at this point, Kingston's true potential is an unknown quantity (again in my opinion) I like this saying and think it sums it up best,

"Pedigree indicates what the animal should be. Conformation indicates what the animal appears to be. But performance indicates what the animal actually is."

I really like the way this was put.

I know of someone who took a BYB Border Collie pup, got into herding with her, and the dog turned out to be a steller working sheep dog. The dog did very well in competetive herding trials for several years and her pups have also proven to be excellant workers and examples of the breed.

But the only way to find this out is training and competition - the proof is in the pudding, not necessarily the pedigree.

So you think that this was an exception or a rule?
Are you proposing Mara, that all of the working dog breeders start acquiring their breeding stock in that manner?

So this was a good trial dog, her pups were good trial dogs, her grand pups? How'd they produce?
Did any of the aberrations in any generation go on to be true working sheep dogs?
It hardly matters. Forget it.

I'm wasting my time.
You win, BYB's are the top of the food chain.

I'm outta here.

I suggest you keep studying Collin, it's a better bet.
Randy

 Quote: ingrid rosenquist

I meant to also say that looking at pedigrees when breeding is an important factor but in this situation, I just don't see the point in slamming Collin and saying Kingston is unworthy of being potentially bred. He is trying to *learn*. He came here asking for advice and he got it. I credit him for coming and asking and wanting to learn.

Yes,he should not breed Kingston at this point as Collin needs to gain experience and knowledge and Kingston needs to prove himself in health, sound structure, and performance. If those things come to pass, then looking at pedigrees and considering breeding could be a possibility.

Collin, keep an open mind, get involved in breed/working clubs, even if they have to be long distance due to your location. Expand your knowledge base and work your dog. Through that you will likely discover if Kingston is worthy to be bred. It won't happen over night, It won't happen even in the next year but if you really want to be an asset to the Rottie breed, you can be one day. After all, even the greatest dog person started out with little to no knowledge.

Good luck.

thats where the problem lies. when I contacted "certain" clubs outside of hawaii via email, the responses I got were similar to the ones on this thread. their view of me was as if I shouldnt progress with my plans due to lack of knowledge. that I can understand, but its REALLY easy to stand there and point out the obvious instead actually pointing me in the right direction. so far the tone of this thread has been not so much "slamming", but a redundancy of "go study", or "find out more info".

much thanks to connie for the PM with a very insightful message and thanks to Ingrid for having an open mind.

when I go on "other" forums, my theory is to "each one teach one". ya'll on here have wayyy more dog experience than I. I understand that. now when a fresh fish comes forward seeking help, I felt as if I was heavily persuaded to not get into breeding. Leerburg.com has offered me tools on training and all types of stuff. this is the first time I've felt pushed away from what I wanted to do dog-wise.

all in all I hope this thread helps people from now on

 Quote: Webboard User

... all in all I hope this thread helps people from now on

It will. Even if it persuades one person not to jump into breeding, it will have been worth all the typing.

Thanks for the clear concise post for him Connie.

I hope in the future Collin becomes the best Rotti breeder in the world.

Hey Collin, remember us when you get there. Okay?

Randy

 Quote: randy allen

... I hope in the future Collin becomes the best Rotti breeder in the world ... Hey Collin, remember us when you get there. Okay? ...

Exactly!

Hey, I'm on the same page as you are. It's an exception, of course. The person took the pup because it was going to be shot otherwise. Then they searched for an outlet for that pups drive and got seriously into the world of herding. And the dog happend to have what it took as well as being physically/mentally sound. But they never would have known that if they hadn't been serious about triaing/trialing the dog.

All I'm saying is that the quality of a dog is determined by the finished product - not the paperwork the dog comes with.

IMO, every dog needs to be proven before being bred. Just having a great pedigree won't cut it. If the dog has genetics worthy of being bred you will be able to prove it on the competition field. And you're never going to know just how good your dog is unless you are out competeing/working among peers and continue to educate yourself on the ideal standards for your breed.

And yes, the pups and a couple of grand pups now are excelling on the trial circut as well as on farms and ranches. Some of the offspring have qaulified for national cattledog and sheep dogfinals as well. But only because the owner spent hundreds of hours training the dog and educating themself in the first place.