Re: Help! - Slovakia Male 2yrs = Agressive.
[Re: Aaron Myracle ]
#224454 - 01/20/2009 05:51 PM |
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Someone posts asking for help, typically with a very long backstory.
Problems within the current training approach are pointed out, and advice is given.
The OP then defends the original behavior, rather than saying, "You know what? You're right, I made a mistake. I should try something different next time. Thanks for the advice."
It's true. Sometimes I get the feeling people just post their problem expecting everyone to agree with them and pat them on the back. Might not be true with the OP, but that's the sense I get.
BUT ANYWAY... I'm curious for my own development as a dog trainer... how would you deal with a situation like this?
My first reaction to reading his post was to get a chain leash and leave it attached because he was chewing up all nylon and leather leashes. This might defuse the struggle over attaching the leash... at least for a while.
Then I thought about dealing with the food aggression first, by not feeding the dog for about 24-48 hours, then feeding him his meals by hand with markers. I'd feed him through the crate door if necessary. I guess I would use his hunger to try to build the dog's trust and teach him that good things happen when I'm around. I think it also helps with pack structure.
What say anyone else?
v/r
Kurt
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Re: Help! - Slovakia Male 2yrs = Agressive.
[Re: Kurt Smith ]
#224455 - 01/20/2009 06:01 PM |
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Kurt, both of your ideas are good, and definitely would help the situation.
The dog sounds scared. And thus far, everything that has been done to him, has only intensified and reinforced his fear.
This is an adult German Shepherd. He "attacked" one person, and yet no skin was broken.
Not being there, I don't know what to call it.
I do know that I wouldn't choke a dog out for growling after only a couple of days. Would I watch the dog closely? Yep.
Would I be very, very careful? Yep.
Would I always be prepared to hang the dog if it actually DID attack? Yep.
But growling, this early in the game, would not lead to hanging for me. I'd chalk it up to what it probably is- a dog that is very, very insecure in his new environment. I'd focus on making him feel secure, without rewarding his inappropriate growling behavior.
I had a horse that tried very hard to kill me. He was unsocialized and basically wild, until one day he was caught, stuck in a trailer, trailered from Oregon to Washington and unloaded into a stall.
Yes, I could have put a be-nice halter or a nose chain on him.
But it was easier and more productive to give him as much space as possible, and let him get used to his new environment and his new people in an unobtrusive, less frightening way.
I let him go hungry a day or two, and then hand fed him over the stall door.
I sat in a chair outside his stall door and read books aloud.
I let him get used to me before I began expecting civil behavior.
It's hard to expect a terrified, half-crazed animal to act normal.
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Re: Help! - Slovakia Male 2yrs = Agressive.
[Re: Jennifer Marshal ]
#224456 - 01/20/2009 06:03 PM |
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.... While I don't agree with how Jason set this dog up, just because he has only had the dog for 5 days does not mean he is not jusitified to take extreme measure if the dog tries to attack him.
I guess I'm just not reading clearly or thinking clearly or something. That setup isn't my way of dealing with handler aggression (growling), and it's also not a setup I would do with someone else after the dog had only been with me for only a few days. And I don't mean just because the O.P.'s plan for the dog is PPD.
Regarding the leash, I agree with the recommendation of a chain leash. Very cheap if you buy one, cheaper if you make one.
I think having the dog on leash was generally agreed on.
The main thing here is Jason needs to handle the dog differently, very strict NILIF policy, pack structure, pack structure, pack structure.
This advice too was given in more than one response.
Kurt: Yes, both good thoughts.
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Re: Help! - Slovakia Male 2yrs = Agressive.
[Re: Connie Sutherland ]
#224457 - 01/20/2009 06:07 PM |
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Connie, I was not agreeing with how the dog was set up. Only that it doesn't matter how long you've had a dog, if it attacks you you have a right to correct it. I am NOT in any way saying that it was right or good or smart or whatever someone wants to call it, to set this dog up.
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Re: Help! - Slovakia Male 2yrs = Agressive.
[Re: Aaron Myracle ]
#224458 - 01/20/2009 06:10 PM |
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.... I sat in a chair outside his stall door and read books aloud. ... I let him get used to me before I began expecting civil behavior. ... It's hard to expect a terrified, half-crazed animal to act normal.
Off topic, but not just horse advice! David Frost gave me that suggestion for dealing with a very fear-aggressive shelter dog. It was good advice.
And back to the topic .....
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Re: Help! - Slovakia Male 2yrs = Agressive.
[Re: Jennifer Marshal ]
#224461 - 01/20/2009 06:15 PM |
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Alyssa, while I agree with the methods you used with the horse, I've worked with horses much like you describe, dogs are not horses. There is no option here to leave the dog without handling until it adjusts. Dogs are predatory animals and the handling of aggression is different in dogs vs horses.**
It would be nice to be able to allow the dog to adjust, and I agree we don't really know what is going on with the dog, but even if it was based out of fear the behavior is unacceptable. Not correcting aggressive behavior is essentially reinforcing it, you are allowing the dog to use aggression to make something it wants to stop, stop. Dominance based, fear based, doesn't matter it needs to stop... yes the methods of correcting the behavior are different, the dog doesn't sound like a typical fear aggression case. But that is the difficulty with giving advice over the internet.
I agree that growling is not an acceptable reason to hang a dog and I would approach the situation prepared but not purposefully provoking the dog.
** when speaking of dominance aggression/territorial aggression etc., not fear aggression
Edited by Jennifer Marshal (01/20/2009 06:17 PM)
Edit reason: amend
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Re: Help! - Slovakia Male 2yrs = Agressive.
[Re: Jason S Campbell ]
#224465 - 01/20/2009 06:40 PM |
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I'll preface this by saying I am not an expert by any means and I rarely give advice because I am so not qualified in comparison to the others here.
Many, many years ago I acquired an adult male Australian Cattle Dog that was extremely aggressive. I don't recall the exact details of how I discovered him but I agreed to be his owner knowing he was aggressive. He was brought to me cross-tied because during transport he ran up the single lead and attacked the handler.
When he was dropped off, I placed him in a large outdoor kennel. I was terrified of him. For a solid week I did not touch him. I fed and watered him through the door and pulled up a chair outside the kennel and would speak softly to him or just sit there and read out loud. No fussing was made...I just hung out quietly by him.
After a week, the intense staring down I received from this dog stopped and his body language relaxed. I recall the moment I first petted him. I unlatched the door and left it open about an inch and he pushed it open on his own and came to me. We did this ritual for another week and he really looked forward to it.
In a month's time this dog moved into the house and was the most devoted creature I ever had. He went everywhere with me.
I know this sounds all woo-woo and touchy-feely but it was the only time I ever had an aggressive animal and it taught me the importance of how a dog (this one in particular) needed time and patience to feel safe before any bond could be established. If I had forced myself on him, I can't say what would have happened but I'm sure I would have been injured.
Jason, slow down. Please, please slow down with him.
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Re: Help! - Slovakia Male 2yrs = Agressive.
[Re: Jennifer Marshal ]
#224467 - 01/20/2009 07:05 PM |
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Horse shormph,
We're talking about a dog.
Appareantly the op has checked out. Too bad.
Now we are among ourselves.
I think most if not all that have weighed into this thread has had problems in dog aggression, handler or other. On different levels perhaps, but we've all seen it......and been bit or attacked.
While none of us would've put up with the challenge from the dog to begin with, if one would read Ed's advise on dealing with a dog of this nature, he doesn't advise a confrontation with the dog within a week of obtaining the dog.
And I think that addresses the op's original question.
Randy
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Re: Help! - Slovakia Male 2yrs = Agressive.
[Re: randy allen ]
#224469 - 01/20/2009 07:27 PM |
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I own 2 dogs and their training is limited to sitting and waiting. All I feel after reading all of this is compassion and worry for the dog. He is probably so confused (or maybe I am).
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Re: Help! - Slovakia Male 2yrs = Agressive.
[Re: randy allen ]
#224491 - 01/20/2009 11:29 PM |
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Appareantly the op has checked out. Too bad.
Agreed because like Cathi, I am confused .
Jason, if you are still out there; several items from your op are stuck in my head as not adding up to the picture you are presenting.
I'll start with why you chose to bring a young male into your home when the current female is in heat? Was your intent to breed them? I ask because he attacked her which means they were allowed to be together and you noted he had no interest in her other than to attack. I read that as meaning you were looking for him to be interested. I'm sorry if I've misread the situation but it was the first thing that struck me with your op and if breeding was your intent; though you would be blasted it could shed some light on your dog's behavior.
The next thing is the description of him jumping up on your gf's mother's arm and chomping/gnawing on it without causing any pain or pressure. Maybe I'm on my own here but I don't read that as aggressive as much as an immature, untrained dog trying to initiate play or blow off steam.
How did you get the choke chain on him? I don't understand the growling and what it means; can you describe body language too? But imo you've hit the jack pot when it comes to bad behavior when you present food. Food is necessary for survival thus it makes a great training tool. I'm not sure if you feed him even though he is growling at you? But if it were me; no food until you show the appropriate behavior. And I would use his meal to train him what that was. I hope you do return for your own growth as a trainer as well as for the sake of your dogs.
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