Just a little example. I have a lot of fun with my dog out at the park. Last night he was playing with a couple dogs he gets along with real well. Their owner & I meet there quite often, & usually leave together. Someone came with a large dog, and my friend suddenly started leaving the park with her dogs. I wasn't ready to leave yet, but Sabre was just following along with the gang, right out of the park if I'd let him. He was distracted. One little tap from the e-collar, and he was looking for me immediately. Just a little tap on the shoulder so to speak. Now granted, I could have yelled. I could have run and grabbed him. But how much easier is this little tap for both of us. Someone said the e-collar is for the handler's convenience. I agree with that, but it's not at the dog's expense. He also benefits from it. I'm not out to prove I can train my dog without this modern convenience. Nor am I out to prove I can do my laundry by hand, or live without my micrwave or this computer. What's the point?

Catherine wrote: Its just my opinion that we're shortchanging the dog if we use e-collars and its a shortcut. I don't think its a substitute for good handling.

***** I’m not sure why people say that Ecollars are a “shortcut.” I think they take more thought than using a leash and collar especially because they’re so foreign to many people. The techniques that I use to get where I want to be are often circuitous and usually aren’t obvious.

***** But they get results in much shorter periods of time and the spin-offs are beneficial as well. Ecollars require the same good handling skills as any other tools.

Catherine ended with: I'm not trying to imply I'm a good handler - still lots of things to learn.

***** You’re not the only one with stuff to learn.

>If a handler and dog are truly a team,
>won't the dog be more attentive to the >handler rather than the distraction?

Depends on the distraction.

You've been watching too many movies.

>I would think that if the bond and >communication were there, the dog would obey
>without an e-collar.

Or without a pinch,

Have you been training with Uncle Mattie again?

Too many movies? No, what I observed is some good handlers with well trained very high drive dogs not trained with e-collars.

Here's just one reason I won't use an e-collar. I'm just starting to scratch the surface of what signals are being sent to my dog through the lead and how you can communicate with a lead. While you can communicate to a dog with an e-collar, you can't communicate WITH the dog using an e-collar. Thats simply what I believe.

I have some question regarding communication. It is commonly referred to in this string of posts, so I would like to get a feel for what people think.

How do you communicate with your dog? How does you dog communicate with you?

Additionally, how do you think dogs communicate to each other?

Bill-
What you describe appears to be "working service training." Am I correct in my assumption? Your responses seem logical to me.

Though I have no ill feeling toward 'Uncle Mattie' I assure you, my opinions of training has nothing to do with the land of make believe & hollywood. Communication between dog & handler is special. In the movies they can edit out mistakes. In real life you don't get a second take...

Do you find that if the dog doesn't wear the e-collar that his/she is less obedient? If that's true do you feel as though the dog is obedient to the collar & not the handler?

Yes, I know that could apply to any collar so my point is doesn't this mean we as handlers need to stop taking short cuts & improve our communication skills.

Rob wrote: Do you find that if the dog doesn't wear the e-collar that his/she is less obedient? If that's true do you feel as though the dog is obedient to the collar & not the handler? Yes, I know that could apply to any collar so my point is doesn't this mean we as handlers need to stop taking short cuts & improve our communication skills.

***** There’s that comment about short cuts again. I know of an OB trainer who runs an Internet list who often says “What’s wrong with a leash???” My answer to that question is another question. “What’s wrong with plain old mail (vs. Email).” The answer to both questions is “Nothing.” But I certainly wouldn’t go back to hand–writing a letter, putting it in an envelope, putting a stamp on it, driving to the post office, dropping it into a box and then waiting 5 or 6 days for a reply. Would anyone here be pleased if that’s how this forum was run???

***** Of course snail mail as it’s come to be known, has it’s place but I can’t remember the last time I used it for anything besides paying a bill. And many here, I’m sure, have that done electronically!!!

***** I still use a leash and correction collar but not as my primary tools when training dogs. There is NOTHING that’s faster and creates less havoc, when used properly, in the rest of the dog’s work than an Ecollar. No other tool lets me communicate better with the dog than the Ecollar.

Rob wrote: Do you find that if the dog is not wearing the e-collar, he/she is not as obedient?

Rob, my dog comes running to me no matter whether his collar is on or not. It just happens that he was trained with an e-collar. Does your dog become less obedient when the long line is not on him/her? Depends on the environment at any given time, and how far along your dog is in his training, etc., right? I remember many years ago learning not to make the critical mistake of taking the leash off too soon. I like the collar on my dog so I don't miss an opportunity to reinforce a command. But many times, I never push a button the entire time we're out. Just because the collar is on, doesn't mean my dog is getting corrected all the time, expecting to be corrected, or even aware he's wearing the collar. I'd say the communication between us is A Ok!