Kevin-

Saw your reply, ignore my last one please...Thanks.

Just so everyone knows Bernards dog is also
his working police dog and if you don't think
for one minute this dog won't chew your ass up just ask the last few criminals he's apprehended....

Who is Bernard? I don't remember saying anybody's dog on here wouldn't bite.

>Renee--No thanks on Flink. While I am sure >he has trained many dogs. I do not train for >shutzhund so the fact that a dog is a >shutz.III does not mean anything to me

Bernard Flinks-- his dog is a SchH III as well
as his working police dog.

Kive,

I guess I don't understand the problem with the term "drive". It is just a convienent term to describe a dog with the genetics to do the work. Call it "Fred" if you want the point remains the same. If the dog has the genetics for the work, it will make it easier to do the training. Yes in a dog without the genetic background you may be able to train the dog to do may of these things as a "trick", but it will be more difficult and less reliable when completed. Even if the dog has the proper genetics it is possible to lower the desire to do the job, or "lower the drive" through the training methods you use. The genetics create the ability, and to a certain extent, the desire to do the job. You don't even have to believe in drives to use them, but it will be easier to increase the reliablity and level of performance if you work with the dog rather than against it to do the training.

So could someone explain to me what the problem is with the term "drive"?

Kevin:

My extreme example of correcting a young pup was to attempt to show you that a pup reacts and bounces back differently then an adult dog does. So I spend more time socializing, developing drives and imprinting young dogs then making them behave. Remember he is not my pet. That’s all. Pretty basic. I do not see much room for opposition.

Please do not contest Bernard Flink’s too strongly. It is an unwarranted insult. You and I are so far from his understanding of protection training it is not funny. It would be like you and I going over to Michael Jordan and correcting him on his lay-up. Stick to telling me I’m full of it.

Remember a drive is an unconscious reaction to a stimulus. Your examples like brushing your teeth do not fit. Getting an erection when seeing a naked picture is a better example – sex drive.

If the drive theory is true then there just aren't enough of them to explain dog behavior.

Does it mean that a shepherd or anyone else who's never heard of the drive theory and never used a toy or food for a reward has lesser working dogs? Or that their reward at the end of the day is any less? Or that the bond between handler and dog is any less?

Excuse me, I'm in thirsty drive and must go get something to drink.

Catherine,

Just what is your theory on training in general. I don't believe I've seen you agree with anyone in regards to any of the topics on this board. I'm curious???????

Please feel free to e-mail. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Thirsty Drive. That's funny. But remember that thirst is not a drive, but rather the body's physical response to an internal condition. The body needs water to function, and when the body needs water, you feel thirst. If you didn't feel thirst, then you might forget to drink, and the body would cease to funcion. Same with hunger. It's similar to perspiration when you're hot, or shivering when you're cold. The body needs to remain at a specific core temperature. If you start to get hot, the body will perspire in order to cool, or if you get cold, the body will shiver in order to generate heat. When the body needs to eliminate waste, you feel the urge to go to the bathroom. Blinking, breathing, sleeping.
These things are involuntary physical responses to internal conditions of the body, not at all the same things as drives.

Drives are different in many ways. Drives are more like subconcious or innate responses to external stimuli. Let's take
prey drive. Now, all predatory animals have this drive, it is not limited to canids. But, since we're talking dogs here, I'll use the wild canid example. Say the canid, or dog,is hungry. He'll feel the hunger, the body's physical response to the condition of needing food. He may begin to search out something to eat as a response to his hunger. Suddenly, a rabbit bursts out of the bushes and bolts across the dog's path, then into another bush. This sudden movement of a small prey animal across the dog's path triggers a response in the dog to pursue and catch this rabbit. That response is a drive. The dog doesn't sit there and think Hmmm that looked like something I could possibly eat. Maybe I'll go check it out and see.. He simply reacts instinctively and gives chase to the small animal. All dogs have these drives that we talk about, it is the degree to which the drives are present in the dog's makeup that varies from dog to dog, and it is the behaviors that result from those drives that vary from breed to breed.

To utilize the dog's natural drives in training is working with the dog's natural abilities, nothing more and nothing less. Training takes those drives and shapes them into the behaviors that we need our dogs to perform, whether it be herding, hunting, retrieving, protecting, or whatever. All of these behaviors are based upon the drives that exist within the dog.

You have a nice puppy and my advice is two fold. First of all, not all dogs have sufficient prey drive for you to be able to use it as a reward. The prey item, whether a ball or toy, has to be "imprinted" to the puppy at a young age as his "chosen prize" prey item of choice and otherwise, a ball is simply a ball, and not much else. Your pup either is lacking sufficient prey drive for a ball to be a meaningful reward or hasn't been imprinted with it as a reward.

Secondly, to get the dog to respond in different situations, Ed has a very good video called "Basic Dog Obedience" and in it, he shows step by step of how to first teach the command, then add the element of time and then distance and then distractions, and in that order. You need a "proofing" phase for your dog to go through and just because he does the command at home, means he knows the meaning of the command, but the new location in itself acts as a distraction to him.

My advice is to buy the video and use food and praise as rewards. Build the command in different locations for different lenghts of time. Then add distractions. Good luck.