Quote: Shawn Reed

I am by no means an expert yet. Through all the readings I have read, most dog psychologists will tell you, you can't have both. you can either have a guard dog or a family dog, but not both. The most popular source I have read was Cesar Millan.

Disagree entirely, I got two that will put it to you and are perfectly tractable around my family. Its training and blood lines

I am with Dennis.

You can have both in one dog. But it takes much work and training and the right genetics.

The hard part is finding that dog and being lucky enough to have a handler who is capable of recognising the ability in the dog and training it to its full potential. The latter two seem to be as rare as the first...

It's almost always best in the sections on protection training, Police K9, problems with aggression, etc., for inexperienced posters to offer questions only.

Not at all a dig at anyone -- a general observation.

And it's always appreciated when a poster says upfront what his/her level of expertise is; thank you!

Jessica - I'm afraid I wasn't clear. I don't believe I said I thought any dog "(will wait for a command to attack in the face of danger)", but if I did, I apologize for the incorrect statement. I really don't know, but I would assume any dog would be unreliable at best with holding back in the face of a true threat.

Regarding the second statement of mine you quoted, I meant to make that basically one big question, not statements. I really don't know how the dog would react, so I was asking those out there with PPDs to address that. So...none of that was really any sort of expectation that I had. I don't really have expectations at this point. That's sort of what I'm trying to discover through these postings - what sorts of expectations should I have from the GSDs, the Livestock Guardians, etc. Believe me, I am not writing here waiting for someone to encourage a naive belief that there's some super-dog out there with near human intelligence and infallible discretion. So, if I come off that way, please chalk it up to error in putting my thoughts to text.

Regarding other dogs not being used in military, police, etc. I understand this reasoning, but it didn't put me off as much before because I realized that, for instance, a Caucasian Ovcharka would be horrible as far as following commands, and so could not be the turn on/turn off sort of dog the military and police use GSDs and others of that sort as. However, my understanding is that they are fantastically popular as sentry dogs by police, military, and general security forces over in their native lands. Tibetan mastiff's are considered livestock guardians, but were originally used as sentries as well. They have their place as guardians, it seems...just not as the sort suitable for personal protection via command...seems to be more of a territorial, independent protection. I suppose the resources that mention this could all be some sort of propaganda, but I try not to take one resource and believe it...when several resources start to all say the same thing, it becomes more believable to me. I am not in the Russian military, nor have I been a Tibetan monk, but, I mean, it is possible that they are great sentry dogs, and horrible for the sort of protection training GSDs and others do...no? I just have no real proof that what the literature says is wrong...I'm looking for it, but I've got nothing.

So, Alyssa, to summarize re. the livestock guardians, then, you would be more of the opinion that they are likely to put on a good visual deterrent, and are quite alert, but they should not be expected to back up the bark with any physical contact?

"I love this breed. The energy level matches my own; I love the attitudes, and the goofiness. I love the appearance and the coat. I will always buy working line dogs and from proven stock to stack the odds in my favor, but will always buy this breed."
I think this is fantastic. This is the sort of thing I'd like to feel about a breed, and that is why I've been doing what I've been doing. I really hope I find the breed that garners this sort of match and connection with me.

Vito

Vito

Not Found

The requested URL /~n51ls801/securitydogs.html, was not found on this server.

Vito, I am sorry if my posts jump to conclusion about what you want, expect, or understand. Not my intentions or place to do so. I am not trying to convince you to get a particular breed or not to (well, except for the Akita, I would never recommend one to a family with children), just trying to educate you to the reasons behind my reluctance to go with an off breed and expecting it to defend the family.

Bottom line is for the type of expectations you seem to have described in your posts, and the level of experience you seem to have, you should stick with a dog that is breed that is more typical. If you want a Tibetan Mastiff, then by all means, go for it! But don’t expect to get a dog that will defend you. It is just not in the vast majority of them to do it. What they were originally bred to do has little to do with today when there are almost none bred to work anymore, and for generations. To be honest, most are bred for nothing more than what they look like, even temperament often takes a back seat to looks…

ETA: You may get a teritorial dog, but not a protective dog. They are two differnt things. And if te police dog issue has you unconvinced, then look at the vendors that sell dogs to the general public for home defence. None sell these off breeds either, and for a reason.

I like the Rott. We are a typically low key family that likes to do things, but not all day. Hikes, bike rides, camping, swimming. Not the soccer, baseball and basket ball games all in the same weekend type of family. A Rott fits us, well that and Rob is not so fond of pointy eared dogs…

Jessica - you have been so helpful. I believe I am going to take your advice and go with something that I can have a bit more confidence in. Thank you so much for following up with me on everything! I will be sure to post what ends up happening, with pictures and details (it may be some time, though, as I still have much research to do!). I hope you wouldn't mind if I might pester you with Rott questions in the future...?

Mr. Jones - I apologize for the poor link. I hope this address works better...?
http://www4.ncsu.edu/~n51ls801/securitydogs.html

Thanks again, everyone.

Good luck Vito. I hope you find the dog that fits ll of your needs. And ask away. All questions welcome from me and most others here.!

Thanks, Jessica. Will do. By the way, what would be a decent list with which to conduct my new and improved, much more informed research with? I believe this site has sections for boxers, malinois, giant schnauzers, dobermans, rottweilers, bouviers, pits, dutchies, and GSDs, but would you recommend I give any others a look?

Vito please understand that the very large majority of off breeds or for that matter any supposed protection breed will in all probability not do what those slick web pages say they will, and the reason they won’t is the following well proven breeding maxim. “You Get What You Select For” and what has been selected for first for a large majority of working breeds has been guided by what wins at shows or the market place.

Another thing you should always remember is a trait does not reside in a breed because it once did. In order to sustain any trait be it genotypic or phenotypic is by breeding it to a like example on an ongoing basis. There is no other way. If you don’t, a trait such as correct nerve, biddability or the want to protect in the face of pain or threat etc. will disappear. When? I can’t say but it’s just a matter of time and a very short time I might add.

What will be left after this selection process is a caricature of the breed, defined as one that sort of looks like its working counterpart and has some few shards of the traits that took hundred and sometimes thousands of years of consistent breeding to create. An unbalanced protection breed is a time bomb. I have been training working breeds for over 30 years and put working schutzhund titles on GSD’s and one Boerboel (South African Mastiff) and a Rott and what I can tell you is, because of selection/breeding, most off breed dogs will not step up because they lack either lack nerve, courage or biddability or all of the above. Why? Most owners/breeders can’t handle a correct (balanced with defined drives, including aggression) 140 pound mastiff it so they begin selecting for passivity and by doing this expand their market place so more people can handle them. Correct temperament for them is a dog that won’t respond but looks and or sounds like it might.

You begin to hear things like this on their breed boards. The threat advanced and my (fill in the blank breed) came back to me in order to protect me. No it came back because it was not selected to stand his ground and protect you and because of that was frightened and came back to you for its protection.

That said today it is damn hard to find a good GSD even from working breedings, and I’m not including 97% of the GSD’s available today (non working) from this discussion because they have so diminished by show breeding they are now considered a subspecies by all who have a working use for the breed.

By the way being a balanced companion is IMO a worthwhile use.

I would suggest you get your feet wet by TRAINING a dog from a working breeding and find out for yourself why you like or dislike what you have on the end of your leash and go on from there. Very few of us end up with our first dog. Good luck. Norman Epstein