Complusion reduces drive, but creates disipline. Drive complusion Drive is the best way to go. Even when teaching a no prey drive dog it is nice to give the dog a piece of food whne he is in the correct heeling postion, and correcting him when he is not, thus making the imprint in the dogs mind that, this is nice, that is not. I will avoid going there.
Certain dogs can tolerate pressure more then other dogs. While one dog can hold its drive after a few corrections, another might need its reward sooner, as to not let the drive level slip to a low level. When you use pressure, you should realease the stress with something that makes the dog happy. I know a guy that was his Regions Champion and his dog had no real tug or ball drive, so he petted and rough housed with the dog as his realease, as the dog was trained not by performing an exersise for a ball, but becasue he was forced to. The dog looked good and happy, because there was no conflict, once he understood what was expected of him. Someone else here posted a statement, that I think was great, be consistant in what methods you use. This is the key to sucess.

Here is my problem with compulsion and competition:

With compulsion the dog is REWARDED for compliance -- because no correction is given.

Result-- dog views the absence of correction (no correction) as a reward for what it is CURRENTLY doing.

Problem-- Go to trial and the dog is forging -- handler response -- no correction (not allowed in trial).... dog says wheee hooo... no correction... forges MORE.... still no correction.... forges across the field.... no correction.

Happens all the time in trial. Of course compulsion has worked for decades in trial situations.

Can any experienced trial veterans comment on how this problem is avoided?

Great point Michael Taylor . Most people assume that the D-C-D equation must be accomplished using prey drive. This is not the case. Food, fight or pack drive as your example suggests can be used as well as many others.

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I had the same question for the Germans. There answer was "you not train the dog right, it is not finshed. Time will tell you what you are doing" I thought they were nuts( And knowing them now I think I was right) but I think the drift of it is, normally if the dog is really trained, and when using complusion, the problem is too many people do not make this area black and white. it is grey. If you are not using a prey item, then the dog must respect and understand that if I forge I will get punished. THere is no ther reason then the pack instict for him to stay in postion. Make sense? If you do not enfoce t this everytime he takes an inch, normally this is why this happens in trials. It is not 100% clear to the animal, so he tests the area. He has learned this. And another thing is, no dog is perfect. Most dogs have a weak area. People say that the dog becomes trial wise, maybe so, but the dog if trained right should perform at a level, no matter when. It is the handlers job to maintain that level.

The same argument can be used for the absence of food or a ball at a trail. The fact is the only dog that will be 100 percent reliable is the dog that’s highest motivation in life is to please its handler (pack drive satisfaction). Unfortunately a dog that can be trained to do a 100 point OB routine using ONLY praise is almost unheard of. The only way then is to trick the dog into thinking that the ball or correction can be coming at any time.

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Reward is best when random. But correction is best when certain, consistent. The idea that reward and correction are equal is just plain false.

If the dog is in trial and does NOT get the ball... it will only make him work harder (if properly trained).

Originally posted by Dave Lilley:
Reward is best when random. But correction is best when certain, consistent. The idea that reward and correction are equal is just plain false. Good point Dave. I agree.

Thank you very much to all who responded to my original request. The debate was very enlightening and I shall certainly reread this thread many times. Learning is always an ongoing experience. Thanks again!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I could not have said it better myself Sch3Fh2! Great post!