 Re: Bad breeding website
[Re: Kristel Smart ]
#252048 - 09/09/2009 08:34 PM |
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I am assuming that based on what has been said here that those of you who have bred (if any of you have) have absolutely pristine/perfect dogs. That they meet the breed standard to the letter with absolutley no issues what so ever. And that you have somehow managed to find the same in the dog that you bred to.
.... when a health or temperament issue does crop up, it ends there. I don't make excuses about why it's okay to breed a dog with an issue. I suck it up, and move on. I don't breed that dog no matter how much time or money I have invested in it because my whole point is to breed BETTER dogs, not just more of them. .... My concern is that you were representing yourself as "the voice of the ethical breeder" in a thread about bad breeders .... I don't want somebody with genuinely good intentions, thinking that this ludicrous notion of breeding faults (it's okay if you disclose it?!) is a legitimate and ethical practice.
Exactly. Exactly.
Whether Patti "gets it" or not (and she obviously does not), thank you for stepping in and making clear that the POV of "it's OK to breed faults if you disclose them" is not the POV of responsible and ethical breeders.
The idea is to strive for as close to perfection as you can get. Starting with known health and temperament faults is not striving for better and better dogs. 
Choosing the least problematic of what you have on hand .... is just not breeding for the betterment of the breed.
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Re: Bad breeding website
[Re: Patti Neelans ]
#252049 - 09/09/2009 08:40 PM |
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... When she was diagnosed with the cataracts I immediately called my breeder (I won't mention names) who had bred and imported rotties for over 30 yrs and was (and still is) very big in the protection sports and training. I asked if he knew of any other dogs in her lines with this condition. he didn't. I told him I was waffeling on breeding her. he asked me some questions .... He said: "THEN BREED YOU DAMN DOG!!" He is an old schooler and said that they only screend for hips and elbows (even in Europe). He said with everything they look for now a days they are going to eliminate 99% of the breeding stock in existance.
Don't you see that shopping around until you get the opinion you want about a health problem is exactly what Kristel and others are talking about here?
.... I was told by the opthomologist that if a dog was to get any type of cataract that this was this best kind to get and it rarely progressed to cause any kind of problem, but it is heritable so don't breed her. ... I thought long and hard about it, contacted my breeder who has imported and bred rotties for the better part of 40 years. ... I chose to breed her BUT i disclosed in my contract that she was diagnosed with this condition ... If this makes me a bad breeder in others eyes...so be it. |
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Re: Bad breeding website
[Re: Connie Sutherland ]
#252050 - 09/09/2009 08:44 PM |
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I wasn't "shopping around" as that conversation happened years before THIS conversation ever occured.
I went to a well respected breedertrainer for his opinion. I didn't shop around to many others.
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Re: Bad breeding website
[Re: Connie Sutherland ]
#252051 - 09/09/2009 08:44 PM |
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So "I breed only the best kind of cataract" (even though the ophthalmologist said not to breed the dog) is the epitome of standards in breeding....
I wish it was just you, Patti. We all know it's not, but that doesn't make it fine and dandy.
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Re: Bad breeding website
[Re: Patti Neelans ]
#252052 - 09/09/2009 08:45 PM |
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... I went to a well respected breedertrainer for his opinion. I didn't shop around to many others.
"Many" others?
After a medical professional said "Don't breed a dog with this heritable condition" ...
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Re: Bad breeding website
[Re: Connie Sutherland ]
#252054 - 09/09/2009 08:53 PM |
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I can understand all of this malice about a condition that is detrimental to the health and longevity of the dog.
But by the doctors own words this is a cataract that does NOT progress to causing any problems for the dog. AND IT HASN'T! At 10 1/2 she sees just fine. I didn't even take the doctors word for it but researched it on my own. it was also said to be an eye condition that doesn't progress to causing vision problems in the dog.
As I have said ad nauseum ALL dogs have faults in some form or another. Most of which can be seen. AND I still ask the question for any of you out there who are breeding, where are your perfect faultless dogs????
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Re: Bad breeding website
[Re: Patti Neelans ]
#252055 - 09/09/2009 09:17 PM |
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... As I have said ad nauseum ALL dogs have faults in some form or another. Most of which can be seen.
Right. That means they can be avoided....
Patti, I don't know how to say it any more clearly: Deliberately breeding a dog with a known health problem is not what responsible breeding is all about. (Nothing "malicious" about saying it, either.)
Maybe someone else can be clearer. Maybe it's a waste of time.
But the thread is here, and now no would-be future breeder will read it and take away from it that breeding with known health and temperament problems is swell as long as the breeder discloses it.
All JMHO.
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Re: Bad breeding website
[Re: Patti Neelans ]
#252058 - 09/09/2009 09:28 PM |
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You're breeding a dog with a congenital eye problem, and your justification for it is that "she sees just fine" and her breeder told you to. Okay, I give up. You aren't going to get it.
All this talk of 'breeding flaws' but with emphasis on the length of the dog's back and the size of the dog's head, just enforces for me that the priorities here are all turned around. Like I said, do what you do. Just don't try to sell it to anyone as the standard in ethics.
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Re: Bad breeding website
[Re: Patti Neelans ]
#252059 - 09/09/2009 09:33 PM |
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Patti,
Mind if I ask a question? Out of three litters, exactly how many have lived (and yes that counts four dead pups)? How many have a healthy life with no issues?
What is the oldest left out of the 3?
You must admit, 7 outright dead dogs and one severly HD example making eight dogs out of what, perhaps 21 to 24 dogs a very high rate of loss.
By my estimation, two of those litters came from your 'foundation' bitch.
Why would you try to keep that stream flowing?
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Re: Bad breeding website
[Re: randy allen ]
#252062 - 09/09/2009 09:52 PM |
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Randy, did you read as to WHY those pups died? it had nothing to do with the breedability of the bitch. Her milk didn't come immediately, not an uncommon problem in first time mothers and the other died of navel ill something else that had NOTHING to do with the bitch. My oldest pups are fine and yes they are healthy as is my 10 yo who just passed all of her blood work and recent health check with flying colors
Again I go back to ALL dogs have faults. So that means if faults can be avoided and since ALL dogs have faults, then NO dog should be bred. Correct? How long before we have no dogs to breed? That is PETA"S and HSUS' dream!
I am still waiting for some one to show me a perfect, faultless dog. They do not exist. When you see a dogs fault you must weigh it against the other attributes that the dog has.
many of you have posted stories about dogs you personally have with health issues. So that means that you have not yet found a breeder either who has and is breeding perfect, faultless dogs.
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