Brendan - I was ready to wear a set of holsters around the house and nothing would of pleased me more than to "choke the sh*t"
out of Riesz. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> This get's really old after awhile and besides, I was so tired of "bench pressing" this much weight, I'm not into body building. LOL. We were to in-experienced to handle him so it was best he went back.

A few days back Vince P mentioned that he asked me to jump in on this topic. I don’t like these discussions because unless I’ve see the dog I’m relying on what someone else perceives the dog as doing. And so, anything I might suggest is filtered through their perception and experience. If they’ve missed something and I make a suggestion it might result in a dog being put to sleep or someone getting torn up.

And so I stayed out of it.

But some of the comments caught my attention. One of them had to do with wreaking violence on the dog. I prefer not to do this unless it’s absolutely necessary. The only time I think it’s necessary is when the dog comes up the leash with murderous intent. Then I will use the leash and collar to choke the dog unconscious. I’ve only had to do this a couple of times in my 20+ year career of dealing almost exclusively with dogs that have been trained to bite. I don’t think that hitting and kicking are good except as necessary to save yourself until you can get the dog off the ground.

I much prefer to establish a system of trust and respect as I’ve written about elsewhere on this Forum. But some dogs won’t permit that.

I don’t know that this would have worked with this dog as there ARE the Charley Mansons of the dog world. Without seeing him, I’d still hesitate to classify him this way.

Here it goes...I don't know if this will work but I will give it a shot! Here are pictures of Riesz up unitl 9 months old.
<img src=http;//www.pixhost.com/pixa/andydog1/riesz-happy.jpg>
<img src=http://www.pixhost.com/pixa/andydog1/riesz5b.jpg>

This was taken about 2 weeks before he went back to the breeder.
<img src=http://www.pixhost.com/pixa/andydog1/riesz-happy.jpg>
<img src=http://www.pixhost.com/pixa/andydog1/big-boy-riesz.jpg>

The dog looks like a affable kind of guy, but then Ive know several psycho killers who looked like butter wouldnt melt in their mouths as well. I guess there are psychopaths in the dog world just as there are in the human world.
I never hit my horses with my hand, it makes them head shy, I want them to know that my hand is for pats and putting harness riding equipment on them. The boot is for administering discipline. That might happen once in 6 months with a couple, with one of my horses never.

Heres a incident I saw in the high country one day. Some guys were droving their cattler along the road letting them graze as they went. I stopped to have a yak, while we were talking one of the stock dogs snuck up behind the drover and bit him on the heel like they do cattle, no provocation just did it, the drover reach down and grabed it by the collar lifted it up and bit it hard as he could on the side of the head with his own mouth and then hurled it off in to the grass. He then continued the conversation as if nothing had happened. I suppose thats one way or relating to the dog in its own language!
I guess if you did that to this dog he'd take half your face off.
Ed has a section in his advice section on choking down dogs.

I respect Ellens expertise and I defer to Lous judgment.

I just wanted to clarify a couple of issues, most of the regular readers of the site ptobably think what a cruel bastard that Brendan guy is. As a point of fact I have never choked my dog either this one or any of the others Ive had since I was 9. Our bullmastiff dane cross occasional growls when she is eating and I walk by but a stern word is enough to let her know thats unacceptable. My rott bitch Linda only desire to touch me is to lay all over me and want cuddles. Ive never struck her with my hand or any other way.I've never yelled at her. The only way I have ever given her any sort of correction is via a leash and check chain.
Nonethelss if in the future I posess a dog who seeks to bite me as a challenge to the pack order I'll consider the situation carefully and if choking seems a rational response Ill do it. Not in anger or rage but simply as a way of saying to the dog the inevitable response to you biting or attempting to bite me is to be choked. Nothing personal mate, its just the way it is.Firm fair and friendly. A choke with a smile so to speak.

Perhaps to a certain extent a firm and unequivical mental resolve to supress mutiny in the pack actually to large extent prevents onbreaks of insubordiantion. I'm confident dogs have at least some sort of ability to focus on human thought patterns or at least are extremely sensitive to minute behavoural patterns. I was reading a article the other day about dogs being used to alert epileptics about the iminent onset of a episode so the person can go lay down in a safe place.It's not understood how the dogs can know a seizure is comming on. Dogs, I believe, can also detect a lack of resolve or vaciliation in their pack leader. We can con ourselves into all sorts of fanatsy self images but the dogs see through the bullshit for who we really are. I, for one,are glad my dogs cant talk!


<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Brendan,
You are right about the dogs being less likely to challenge a leader who is, by nature, secure and confident. I see this w/pet dogs all the time, most esp. in multidog households where there is a lot of squabbling. The insecure, nagging owner is the one who will not be able to maintain peace.
And I also agree that it is something innate in those humans, sort of what some cops refer to as *command presence*. It has *nothing* to do w/being loud, harsh, punitve, etc. It's more a quiet, steady nerved confidence that some humans posses.

Aw jeez, Brendan --don't be going all soft on us now! Why sully that mucho macho Aussie outback image by hinting there might be cream puffs in the closet? JUST KIDDING!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Actually -- that's NOT such a bad image come to think of it. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Cream puffs are hard shells with a soft, sweet center. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> Maybe you should think about changing your name from Brendan "The Diplomat" to Brendan "The C.P."! JUST KIDDING yet again. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I know, I know -- that was #2 and if I come up with a #3, it's a bullet between the eyes!

 Quote:

Originally posted by Brendan 'The Diplomat' Powning:
We can con ourselves into all sorts of fanatsy self images but the dogs see through the bullshit for who we really are.

WOOF,WOOF! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Ellen:

The more I read your posts the more I like them. Especially for sport. Brendan is correct in his analogy in the wild but one thing is missing there is no judge involved. Remember in SchH we want a confidant dog that is secure in all situations. Beating a dog down only shows him that hey I'm not that tough after all. This is why I like Ellens approach. It keeps the dogs confidence while accomplishing what I want. Now if he is a pet then I call Brendan to pay him a little visit. LOL.

Brendan it's nice to have you back. We all missed you...

Well said Vince.