Philippe,
I agree with Pets. This *could* become a problem if handled incorrectly, but I think you're doing just fine.
I think it's perfectly normal for a pup to be curious, and maybe even a little suspicious, of new things, especially when the new things approach very quickly, or stare at him while walking by (hey, it makes ME suspicious when a stranger stares at me). Just be confident and don't overreact or you may reinforce his fear and suspicion. And, keep taking him out places and introducing him to new people. I think it was Richard Cannon who also mentioned that you should do the same at home. One thing that I have tried that worked pretty well with my dog, was I started knocking on the front door before coming in, and had my family do the same. Now, instead of immediately barking at the sound of a knock, he goes to the door and sniffs under the crack to see who it is, and either wags his tail in recognition, or continues to act suspicious if he doesn't recognize the scent. You might even have people he knows come into the back yard through the gate and play with him a bit. Just get him used to the idea of people coming around, through the front door and the gate, and he will learn that it's not the presence of a person that should alarm him or not, but rather, the body language/intent of the person. A person who does not belong on your property will behave very differently in the face of a barking dog than someone who is comfortable there. You can teach your pup to accept the meter readers' presence, if you want to.
But, I agree you should have him evaluated; I'm just saying don't overreact! He's too young to say for sure how this will all pan out.

Originally posted by DesertThunderK9:


Sue,
As you can see, Geoff did indeed suggest that Philipe have his dog eval's for police service.
As for your question as to whether a K9 trainer or handler would know better, the answer is: sometimes. There are excellent K9 trainers and bad ones as in any type of training. A K9 trainer *should* know not to put that kind of stress on a puppy, so should a Sch trainer, but it happens all the time.


Yes,he did indeed suggest the pup be evaluated for police service. Due to his age common sense should tell the trainer what kind of tests to do. No trainer in his right mind would take a pup and do the same tests they do with a grown dog. Also true that just because a person trains police K-9's means that they know what they are doing. As you said, the same holds true for SchH trainers. So assuming the K-9 trainer is knowledgeable, the pup can get a good test as with the SchH trainer.....assuming the SchH trainer knows what they are doing.

Sue

Sue,
Exactly. However, I know lots of Sch trainers who will eval a pup at 8 mos, no problem, but the K9 trainers I know will not put the time into it at that age, too many variables. In fact, I suspect that is where some confusion comes in w/training methods. Dunno how it is in other countries, but here it is typical for the dept to acquire the dog at 18-24 mos, with the foundation prey work done already so all that is needed is a brief handler's course w/dog and handler.

I'm wondering if the behavior Philippe's dog is displaying could be partly explained by it being early signs that the dog may have the genetics for fight drive and a degree of sharpness, and not necessarily weak nerves. I have run into a similar situation with my ten month old bitch. She is out of Czech military lines. As a young pup she was very outgoing and sociable. She has not shown any noise sensitivity and does very well on a variety of challenging surfaces. She was very aggressive as a pup when playing with the rag and really preferred to bite flesh as opposed to a rag. With maturity she has become a little distrustful of strangers and most recently has snapped at strangers while out doing some basic obedience and socialization in public places such as shopping malls. She didn't show any hackles, back up or bark. She remained in a sit, and when someone calmly approached and asked if it was okay to pet her, I told her it was okay and squatted next to her telling her it was okay. On a few occasions she turned up her lip and gave a quick snap. When I corrected her she showed a little aggression toward me, but nothing too overt. This behavior happened about a week before the beginning of her first estrus cycle, which might be a factor. I have had her since about six weeks of age and have seen her develop, and do not see her as a dog with a nerve problem, but rather genetics for aggression and possibly good fight and civil drive. I'd be interested in hearing some more opnions on this issue. It seems that there is a fine line involved. For a dog to have strong aggression, there has to be an element of distrust, which elicits that aggression. I'm not convinced that dogs which are otherwise solid in their nerves and not fearful as pups are weak nerved because they show aggression toward strangers as they mature. Rather,this behavior might better be explained as sharpness that is becoming harder to find in some of the more sporty lines bred for extreme prey drive so as to score well in obedience when going for a title, and less raw aggression so as to have less trouble with the B.

Originally posted by DesertThunderK9:
Sue,
Exactly. However, I know lots of Sch trainers who will eval a pup at 8 mos, no problem, but the K9 trainers I know will not put the time into it at that age, too many variables. In fact, I suspect that is where some confusion comes in w/training methods. Dunno how it is in other countries, but here it is typical for the dept to acquire the dog at 18-24 mos, with the foundation prey work done already so all that is needed is a brief handler's course w/dog and handler.


Here in my neck of the woods a lot of K-9 handlers/trainers would take a pup of this age if he showed potential. So I guess it depends on what part of the world and even what part of the country you live in. In parts of Washington State they have a puppy program where pups are raised and trained by the dept/handler. We also have the depts.around here that buy a fully trained dog and then send the handler to a very intensive school with his new dog. In your area all they do is foundation prey work and then a brief handler course?

Sue

Sue,

This confusion looks to be partly my fault.

It was never my intention to suggest that a young dog be used for police work, however, you managed to pick up on exactly what I was attempting to convey.

A dog such as this, with potential, could not go to a better home than a police handler. The handler is well versed in promoting all the positive aspects and curtailing the negative. Assuming of course that the dog was destined for police service.

And I was, subtley, attempting to suggest to Philippe that if he considered the dog might be too much for him he might consider this avenue as opposed to neutering and perhaps returning him to the breeder.

Years ago our breeding programme would put dogs out to private homes at 3 months with the intention of reclaiming them at 18 months. The recovery rate was a disaster because of the environmental conditioning that took place in "family" homes. It was also very expensive as we paid for food and veterinary.

When we changed the system to these pups going to police families we got an excellent return.

Previously I did not do a particularly good job of explaining this. I thought it would be taken as read that police do not put puppies on the street. I also thought it would be taken as read that dogs of this age would not be subject to high profile - high stress testing.

Obviously I was mistaken, although most others did not see a requirement to question this and you patently understood the situation perfectly ..............

Regards,

Geoff.

As I said I would, I put up two pictures of my Lab and I. Nothing fancy just two pictures. Only in recents months have I even been able to look at his pictures because it is painful for me to do so. I had to have him put to sleep 4 years ago because of liver failure. That was the most dificult thing that I have ever had to do Shortly after those two pictures were taken, he started to have seizures. All the strong medications that were being prescribed to him over the next couple of years led to cirosis (sp?) of the liver and kidney faillure. My baby would have been 10 years old this last August. All his trophys ribbon and toys are still packed up. It has been a long time since I have titled a dog in anything and I am rusty. Also too Labs are very different from GSD so therefore another learning curve. http://www.geocities.com/schutzhundshep/Alex.html
Alex

I've been following this thread and I want to jump in here for just a minute. My male GSD was exhibiting exactly the same type of behavior as Philippe's dog, also beginning at around 8 months of age. I acquired this dog when he was 4 months old, he is from German working lines and we were hoping to be able to train him for Schutzhund. We used to take this puppy everywhere we could with us. For the first few months, he would allow people to pet & play with him, occassionally acting a little shy in unfamiliar situations but never anything extreme. All of a sudden, at around 8 months, his hair started to go up when he'd see people, but he would quickly calm down. Over the next month or so, even though he was in an obedience class and was still being socialized, it escalated into him growling & lunging at nearly everyone he saw. He was in obedience class the first time he did it. He actually growled & lunged at the dog trainer's teenage daughter who he had been playing with moments before. He has never tried to hide behind me or shy away. He will run up to & try to nip at someone when they're anywhere near him. His ears stand straight up, his hair goes up, he begins to growl, and then he tries to take off towards the person like a bat out of hell. There is NOTHING territorial or dominant about his behavior, although some people, including dog trainers, told us in the beginning that they believed it was. He is worse when someone/something startles him, but occasionally he does it for no apparent reason.

He is now going on 13 months old. We have since had him neutered and have been treating him by non-traditional means. He is under the care of a homepathic veterinarian, and our lives have been virtually incident-free for 2 weeks now (with the exception of him going after cats, dogs & squirrels, which seems to be more excitement than aggression). He has growled under his breath at one or two people, but he hasn't been going crazy like he used to. From the description Philippe gave, I agree with Joy 100%. This dog is most likely exhibiting fear aggression. It definitely sounds like you're doing what you should do, Philippe, and I've got my fingers crossed that he won't turn into a "nutty" dog like I have. I don't want to bore everyone, but if you have any interest in how I've been treating my dog, feel free to email me privately. I've been having enough success that I'm more optimistic than I've been in months! I just wish I had known then what I know now.

Good luck,

Melissa

Hey, who ripped out the last chapter of this saga? Did this dog get evaluated yet? Hello?