Have you talked to the breeder that he came from about this problem you are having?

From what you say, his defensiveness around people and strange dogs probably does stem from lack of socialization, but its still something the breeder should know about. He might even have some helpful suggestions for you, like clubs or contacts in your area that can help you out.

 Quote: theresa rutherford

Okay, so how do you teach distance training? What we have been doing is that my husband will hold the leash and I give a command from about 10 feet away.

I teach the command (using markers) and I don't introduce anything (venue change, distance, or distraction) until it's perfect.

When I want to factor in some distance, this is what I do: The dog is on a long line. I like this one and have them in several handy spots: http://leerburg.com/729.htm

The line is pretty much "invisible" to the dog; I don't expect to need it and I rarely do need it. It's strictly insurance.

I simply take a step away before the next command. Then I might step back. Then maybe 5 feet away, then 1 foot away. (No pattern.)


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I started my spring Downtown Dogs today (which is pretty much what it sounds like). The first of the 8 or 10 weeks is just the dogs being in the vicinity of the other dogs in the group while doing focus and upbeat marker ob. A particularly dog-reactive dog might be 30 feet (or more -- whatever he needs) away from the others. (No one is off leash.)

We will do the edge of the parking lot of a hospital (wheel chairs, crutches) and Petsmart and skateboard parks and the outside of a dog park (far from the entrance) and the edge of a high school football field and so on.

Last group, we ended up with all seven dogs sitting to watching the Battle of the (high schools from all over the state) Bands go by. (We had a private spot, since my house is on the route, so there were no strangers reaching hands out to the dogs or staring them down, but still, this is a noisy and chaotic event. )

Anyway, today I thought about Rocky, and what kinds of venues you will have to devise.

Rocky may see you as his commander, but he does not see you as his protector or as his guidance as to what the appropriate reaction(s) to his triggers are.

"... we stood at the back of the restaurant under an eve about 30 feet away from people. I talked him through being calm when people came out and went to their vehicles. He did great after about 10 people, then we were approached by 2 men who asked me if they could pet him...I told them, "NO, he isn't good around people" and about that time he jumped up, hair standing on his neck and growled at them...they left without another word. I quickly got him calmed down and we had a few other people who wanted to pet him, but Rocky gave them the same response. I didn't reprimand him...I just calmed him down. AND I would not have let them pet him regardless of whether he was people friendly or not."

With a couple of tweaks, you were going in the right direction there. Here was a place to do basic ob with fabulous rewards, making sure that you were far enough from the stream of people for him to keep his focus on you. And rather than "calming him down" when he reacted to people approaching him, I wouldn't engage with the person at all; I'd say over my shoulder as I walked away with the dog something like "Sorry; in training." The person would not get the opportunity to enter Rocky's reactive zone.

I'd be very careful not to have anxiety or any sense of fleeing for Rocky to perceive; there would be nothing more than "time to move over here and do this."

In the instances where this isn't possible, I would step between the dog and the stranger. There would still be calm assurance emanating from me for the dog to pick up on. (However, this proximity would not be planned at all this early in the game. That person who "walked right up to him and he jumped up on her with his paws on her shoulder like he had known her forever... " -- that would never happen.

I know you can make a plan. No one putting this much thought and effort into their dog's well-being is going to throw up their hands at the idea of planning outings and visits for his desensitizing.

Do you know a neutral dog? Do you have a neighbor or family member who can be asked to stop by for planned sessions (Rocky is on leash, of course; all of this is always on leash)? What is there around you where people park, especially with their leashed dogs?

I forgot to say that I practice the recall all the time. Every time something good is going to happen, I use the recall.

I never use it when something unpleasant is going to happen, and I never use it if I have doubts about compliance and no way to back it up (like a long line).

I use it indoors and outdoors. I might call a dog to me at the bathroom doorway or at the washing machine, and mark and reward when he comes (with a blank "WTH?" look on his face at being called to the bathroom). (I can outthink the dog -- barely -- and get my rewards into position without the dog suspecting that treats are "over there.")

And I don't even do this until the recall indoors is perfect. That is, I won't use it in an odd place or at an odd time until the dog is completely reliable with it, because I never want the dog to get the impression that the recall is optional.

So the recall starts (for me) with the dog very close, and no distance, distraction, or change of venue happens until each version is completely reliable.


I also forgot to say that we have at least a dozen active members here who have successfully dialed back their dogs' reactivity. Each one used desensitizing and counterconditioning. This requires getting the dog close to his trigger(s) (but not close enough to activate them).

That is, you will have to devise plans for getting him out and getting people in. None of it can happen in isolation. JMO!

So tell us what sites you have available and I know we can help you devise ways to use them.

Can we all just take a minute here and applaud the OP for not resorting to defensive, hostile behavior at any point?

 Quote: connie sutherland

I wouldn't engage with the person at all; I'd say over my shoulder as I walked away with the dog something like "Sorry; in training." The person would not get the opportunity to enter Rocky's reactive zone.

The 2 reasons I didn't move were...it was pouring outside and these guys took a detour to come close to us and they were still over 10 feet away when he got upset at them.

 Quote: connie sutherland

I'd be very careful not to have anxiety or any sense of fleeing for Rocky to perceive; there would be nothing more than "time to move over here and do this."

I understand this totally, and if it hadn't been raining I probably would have been apprehensive to leave bec I don't want him to ever think we are leaving a situation bec I am afraid. I had not thought to step between them and I guess the one thing preventing that was that since this was his first encounter with anyone off our farm I wasn't sure that he would sit and stay...you know, another place to train, but I didn't want to take the chance not knowing what he would do.

As for the woman walking up to him...we were in a situation where I had no where to go...several people in my husbands family had come up and were on all sides of me. I had him contained by the leash closest to his neck so he could only move up (thereby jumping on her). I had no choice, but I had warned her not to approach him. Thankfully, he didn't bite her.

 Quote: connie sutherland

Do you know a neutral dog? Do you have a neighbor or family member who can be asked to stop by for planned sessions (Rocky is on leash, of course; all of this is always on leash)? What is there around you where people park, especially with their leashed dogs?

I don't know of anyone who has a dog I would consider taking Rocky around - either the person is too high strung and expects the worst at all times (putting Rocky in a vulnerable position with her and her dogs) or people who do not use leashes on their dogs at all. I really wish I did. I can take him to the park once a week where he will see other people, but I have never seen any dogs there...I don't think dogs are prohibited there.

 Quote: connie sutherland

I forgot to say that I practice the recall all the time. Every time something good is going to happen, I use the recall.

That is also what I do. And, like you said, I only make sure I can enforce what I say. Same for my kids...as an example...I never say anything I can't immediately make happen - to my 2 yo "2 year olds stand on the floor, not the table" while I am picking her up from off the table and placing her on the floor. I use this same method with Rocky...I always make sure I can enforce what I say, if I can't, then I don't say it.

 Quote: connie sutherland

This requires getting the dog close to his trigger(s) (but not close enough to activate them).

I can't wait to try this...I like the sound of it.

Thanks for the responses. I am not the type to get mad or angry over much and I am a fairly quiet person. So, Aaron, you didn't offend me, I just felt that I needed to be more clear in my posts. Thanks.

 Quote: Aaron Myracle

Can we all just take a minute here and applaud the OP for not resorting to defensive, hostile behavior at any point?

YES!!
Theresa.... THANK YOU, for taking all of this in stride! You're on the right track here, there are a ton of people who will help you with this. You've heard a lot of opinions, mine included, and not reacted by spitting back something pissy.

 Quote: theresa rutherford

I never say anything I can't immediately make happen - to my 2 yo "2 year olds stand on the floor, not the table" while I am picking her up from off the table and placing her on the floor.

ROFL. Yup, thats happened in my house a time or two. We also do not allow dogs on the table. He'll get down w/ UH-UH sound though. The kid just stares at me. Enforceable statements work wonders, both with children, AND pets!

 Quote: theresa rutherford

... I don't know of anyone who has a dog I would consider taking Rocky around - either the person is too high strung and expects the worst at all times (putting Rocky in a vulnerable position with her and her dogs) or people who do not use leashes on their dogs at all.

Well, the dog has to be controlled, but not necessarily perfect. 50 feet from yappy dog might equal 10 feet from a quietly indifferent dog.

The point is to come up with what you can think of to work with. Socializing a dog cannot happen in a vacuum. But you can be in control of distance and level of distraction.

"As for the woman walking up to him...we were in a situation where I had no where to go...several people in my husbands family had come up and were on all sides of me. I had him contained by the leash closest to his neck so he could only move up (thereby jumping on her). I had no choice, but I had warned her not to approach him. Thankfully, he didn't bite her. "

This is something you now know cannot happen. You can't allow yourself and Rocky to be surrounded by people that way. That was too close to even one person, never mind a surrounding group. One of the tougher lessons of pack leadership is that the dog's well-being has to come before civil discourse with humans (although often there is no either/or).

You mentioned a park. Can that happen more often than weekly? And what else is there? Where do you grocery shop? Where do you buy gasoline? Newspapers? Dogfood?

PS

And of course, making his basic ob bulletproof at home, inside and out, can and should go on every day.

Distractions might slowly rise to the level of chickens doing chicken-stuff 5 feet away, for example.