What I thought I saw was both parents were Leerburg. That does not make it a Leerburg pup. I breed a lot of dogs from various genetic backgrounds. One cannot say that a customer can take a leerburg male and breed it to just any Leerburg female and get a good working dog. Thats not how it works. Thats the only point I am making. Breeding is like making bread. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Thanks Ed. That definately sheds some light on the subject.

This thread points up a couple of issues that I think are important.


There are a couple of people that end up dealing with dogs. One is dog professionals. These are people that are going to make a living from working with dogs. Some breeders fit is this category, but for the most part the people I am talking about are people that work dogs profesionally. Police, Government Agencies, some security and other working dog concerns need to be able to obtain, train, and maintain working dogs of a specific level of ability and temperament. These are people that also have the abilty to wash out unsuccessful candidates. We have seen at least one example of this recently on this board. There is at least one organization that deals with re-homeing dogs that have lost their "job".

The other type of people that deal with dogs are people that are getting primarily a pet first. Some of them train some very good working dogs, but if the dog doesn't measure up most will not dump the dog to get another. They can develop more of an emotional attachment, and plan on keeping the dog for the life of the animal, no matter what. They may obtain another dog if the one they have doesn't measure up to what they want, but they will keep the animal.

I bring this up because for a person that fits in the latter category, you need to be able to work with a less than desirable situation. I have found that in many cases you can do much better with a dog with some genetic problems than most would believe. This is the reason that this board exists to a large extent. Yes most of us are involved in doing work that has a certain dependance on genetic soundness of temperament. In reality most of us do not really need the dogs we train. We train because it is fun, the dogs enjoy it, and in many cases the dogs are better dogs because of the training. We have to work through issues that other people would find unacceptable.

The training of dogs for primarily dog sports leaves a wider variety of temperaments and levels of abilities for the dogs involved. The training is really the issue and not the finished product. That is why dog sports exist. If you get into a less than desirable situation you need to be able to train around it to get to a better situation.

This is a long, drawn out method of saying that no matter the breeding the issue at hand for most people is having a dog that they can live with. Discussions of nerves and other genetic concerns are for the profesionals and professional breeders. So for the rest of us the concern is training and creating what we want, or can live with, from what we have. I know, we may be covering up genetic issues through training and experience. We recognize what we have and, hopefully the integrety, to not breed dogs that would not constitute an improvement to the breed. A dog that can do the job required, no matter where it started, is still a dog that does the job. Even if that job is a hearth warmer and companion. Training can, and has, turned many problems in to wonderful dogs. It has also turned many exellent candidates into total disasters from which there is no hope of recovery. This is why I worry less about genetics and more about sound training and the remiadiation of problems.

I agree with Richard. We have all done it. Someone asks a training question about their insecure dog and the answer that is given is "the dog has bad genetics and weak nerves." Believe me , Im criticizing myself as much as anyone else(see my first post!LOL) Yeah, sure its true, the dog does have lousy nerves but what the hell good is it to tell someone that without trying to help them turn things into a workable situation? Thats all the average person wants. Help. Not a thread that turns into a lecture on genetics and breeding. Now if the person has unrealistic expectations its one thing to set things strait. Most times its a training issue that can be remedied. I am one who tends to post impulsively. But everyday I learn more and more from this board. Once again...a great post by Rich.

Ed Frawley writes:
What I have found works is a taking it to a very very laid back bitch with good prey drive and 110% solid nerves. What does not work is not enough prey in the bitch, a tad sharp bitch or a bitch with slightly thin nerves.

George writes
I 100% agree Ed, because the pups take a lot of their personality from the mother in my opinion. If mom is nervy or insecure there is a good chance that the pups may follow suit. When I bred my dog I chose a hard female that was social and laid back with a lot of prey drive (she was wanting to play fetch right after birth when I et her out to go to the bathroom! I couldn't resist and played a little).
The pups have the drives on demand of the father and the level headedness and laid back part from the mother.

George

Well lets try this one again...

The issue of nature vs nurture comes up again. There is getting to be some evidence that if the bitch has working chacteristics you like, or is trained in some activity, the puppies will learn these behaviors if they are left with her longer, up to 12-17 weeks. This is another reason I don't worry a lot about the "nerves" from a genetic side. The puppies will pick up a lot from the bitch. I also have had good luck getting puppies when I have a dog I like the temperament on. The puppies seem to pick up on the behaviors of the adult dog.

The other issue I have with this discussion often is if you can "train" these behaviors out is it a genetic issue? If it is a purely genetic issue all the training in the world won't matter. This is why I believe it is a combination. A dog, like a person, is a combination of their genes and their experience. It is important to remember this and to keep in mind that these two issues can't be seperated. We can also use it to our advantage. In my case, the things that my older dogs do that I like I train them with the puppy. Socialization is one area that the older dogs really help with. Civil work is another area where the older dogs help. The things I want to change I train away from the older dogs. This way I can control what they learn.

Because behavior is a combination issue, it must be looked at as a whole. If you really watch, many breeders will guarantee their puppies, until there is a problem. Then the problem was caused by the way the puppy was raised and trained. By the same token many owners will blame it all on genetics. It is really easy to point the finger at someone else. A puppy is a rpoduct of the entire process, from the selection of the breeding pair to the life experiences it has. What we need to do is select the best puppy we can find, and then worry about controling the things we can control.

Richard I think the members of this board will agree with me when I say you deserve (6) STARS! I really appreciate you're taking the time to share yourself, you're time and you're expert advise with me and the others who I'm sure, continue to learn a great deal from you. Take a bow, you deserve it. You are a class act! I for one always look forward to signing into the board each day hoping to see and read one of you're posts because I know how much they help me understand. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I couldn't agree more Richard. It's always a combinaton of nature and nurture.Many times genetics is used as hype and a selling point or an excuse for failure. Many of hese people do not even really know what genetics are.
I think it's pretty fool hardy to guarantee the temperament of the pup unless the new owner follows the guidlines for raising the pup from the breeder . I can see guaranteeing health and replacement or refund, but not temperament.
It's funny Richard when I first got into training years ago and I went to different "trainers" I wanted to bring my dog to watch a few sessions so he could get an idea what to do and these assholes told me that dogs don't learn form other dogs. I knew they were full of crap and never used their services. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

George

Not to beat a dead horse, but again it all depends on what intentions and expectations the owner has for the dog. It's ok to tell someone "Your dog probably dosen't have the genes to be a protection dog". However, its equally important to be pro-active in giving solid training advice as the dog probably has sufficient genes to be good with obedience and turned into a great pet. Richard and George have really hit the nail on the head with this thread. I've certainly said enough about all of this. Great debate guys and gals. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Chuck,

I would agree with you for a profesional dog. For someone that just wants to train, if they are willing to put in the time and money, you can get some good work from dogs without the working genes. Most dogs have some level of prey that can be worked with. Most will defend themselves at some level. These things can be used to teach the process to a new handler and often it is the process that the owners are interested in, not the finished product. If the process can be used to bring people in to the field it can do nothing but help the prospects for developing the working breeds. Once the person is interested they will often select a dog with better breeding and continue on. I have seen this happen several times. I have also seen several non-traditional breeds do some very good protection work.

This would not be a venture for a profesional in working dogs, but what is the harm in getting people interested and involved in protection sports or protection training? If that means working with some less than perfect dogs what is the problem? The good trainer will earn some income from it, the people will come to enjoy the training and dogs, and the work becomes more mainstream. This is what we need. It can be very tough to get started in protection training, and if we discourage the participation in working a dog what is the likely hood that the person will come back with a more acceptable dog? It is very easy to get caught up in attempting to get titles on our dogs and lose sight of the goal which should be to increase the interest in the working dogs.

If you want a corallary look at the conformation side of the equation. The conformation folks have often become snobs, discouraged participation by others than conformation fanatics, make it very difficult to reward dogs that deserve recognition as acceptable members of a breed, and make it difficult to have fun interacting with other dog people. As a result the working people have become so alienated that they will no longer participate. That has hurt some breeds on both sides. The working dogs often have severe conformation faults and the conformation dogs can't really work because of the specialization involved in showing. Is this really what we want?

The idea that the situation can be improved by discouraging participation by anybody with an interest doesn't seem to be very helpful The other thing is that many of the people with less than perfect dogs can become the backbone of a club and make the venture worth while for the trainers. They support the working dogs by helping to pay for agitators, supporting the clubs activities, and supporting the people with dogs that can compete at the top levels. As I have said before, the way to improve the situation is by inclusion, not exclusion of as many people as possible.