connie leave it open i have no problems dicussing training

betty you make a good point i let her get by with everything she is with me all day long

bank treats, pet smart treats mcdonalds ice cream afternoon swimming late night training no leash marker training all positive. equals spoiled time for a change

 Quote: john axe

connie leave it open i have no problems dicussing training

I knew that.

Are you rewarding every single time with a treat?

 Quote: john axe

bank treats, pet smart treats mcdonalds ice cream afternoon swimming late night training no leash marker training all positive. equals spoiled time for a change

Still, those things aren't really related to whether it's time to move away from marker-rewarding 100% of the time.

JMO!

Hopefully I get in before the lock down but I think I might know where your trouble with MT is. The response you are getting from your pup is often the response a dog who is being bribed vs having a behavior marked and then rewarded acts. Does your trainer do a lot of instruction in luring to create the desired results? There is a place for luring, for sure, but it can quickly turn into a bribe in the hands of a novice.

I also think there is confusion (and it most certainly can be confusing) to the use of discipline in raising a pup and MT. John, have you taught your pup the word "No" ? MT trained dogs should know what that means as well as all other dogs. I'm a crossover trainer too and I found the no physical correction tricky because I felt I was not communicating that I was dissatisfied with my dog's response.

Have you done any "no reward marker" work? That really helped me. I apologize if you already know this; but in the case of your pup pulling you. You could say "nope" or whatever word you choose, stop moving do not let her reach her target and as soon as she chooses an appropriate behavior (looks at you, sits, slack in the leash) mark and move forward (moving is the reward). She pulls again repeat and soon the pulling will stop as soon as she hears her "no reward mark". Not in a day but soon with consistant training.

Also, you should move to a variable reward schedule once she has caught on to a command. You should not be giving her a treat every time she performs a command that she already knows....you can start weaning away from that....after two months I think this should have been demonstrated in your class. If not maybe you could find a trainer who will give you a private class. The first MT class I went to I was out of sorts cause of the whole no correction until the command was solid was making me crazy. I went for a private lesson and it made all the difference in the world.

And finally, if it doesn't work for you; and you and your dog have a healthy and happy relationship with mutual respect between you I don't think it is the end of the world if MT is not your thing. JMO.

Edited by Sheila Buckley (08/15/2011 10:34 PM)
Edit reason: Everyone beat me to it and more succintly :)

I think thats one problem John. You've done a little of this, and a little of that, and not been consistant over her 5mos. Its a little surprising with your experience, so don't get offended.

This is exactly the kind of thread that helps everyone who is new to MT and maybe hitting a rough patch!

Nice post Sheila!
That's pretty much what I see in the situation.
The no reward marker is a good point. Loss of reward can be a strong as a physical correction to many high drive dogs.

 Quote: Bob Scott

Loss of reward can be a strong as a physical correction to many high drive dogs.

Not when there are competing motivators and self-rewarding behaviors involved. Management is the key till enough control is established.

 Quote: Ana Kozlowsky

 Quote: Bob Scott

Loss of reward can be a strong as a physical correction to many high drive dogs.

Not when there are competing motivators and self-rewarding behaviors involved. Management is the key till enough control is established.

That's a given with any training.
I have people tell me that reward based training doesn't work because you can't go on a trial field/ring with food or a tug in you pocket. That's correct but you also can't go on a trial field/ring with a pinch or e-collar on the dog.
The training has to convince the dog that either reward or correction is always an option.
It's all training management.