" over the years i have dealt with fear biters. it's obedience . "



Me too, and yep.

Ed has some good words about this topic.

"The fact is fear based dogs must learn obedience. If they don’t they can become dangerous. These kinds of dogs have weak nerves. The role of the handler is to teach them the meaning of the command so they understand what’s being asked. When they know the command they then must learn that UNDER EVERY CIRCUMSTANCE they MUST OBEY."


The absolute expectations, the complete elimination of decision-making for the dog, the security of the dog knowing exactly what he must do .... are needed to vanquish what I have heard Ed call the ghosts in the dog's head.

also with a fear biter you can build his confidence i would take him to a playground (make sure there is no kids) take him on the walks, up the ladders. i take my pup down the slide be careful he doesn't bite you. expose him to everything

That's great advice about the obedience, I think. What's hard for me is the corrections part with a fearful dog. You can't do it all with food and tug, or I don't seem to be able to, not to make it solid.

I'm loving this thread.

Born.

Betty,
Is there anything going on with your pup that is contributing to your questions in this post? I just want to make sure you're ok . Btw really interesting discussion so thanks for bringing it up.

This is my take; temperment is what it is. In general terms a stable dog is not going to develop weak nerves because of environment...bad behaviors and poor responses most certainly, but not a change in genetic make up and vice versa a weak nerved dog isn't going to become genetically strong in a good environment but can be taught appropriate responses to stimulus.

So I believe there are genetic fear biters; but there are also dogs with decent temperments who have learned to bite as a survival technique. I really liked Bob's description of a HA dog. I think a strong breed dog will and should test your leadership and may do so by coming up the leash; how you handle that can create HA or eliminate it.

I'm thinking in terms of an adolescent dog who is testing the waters; comes up the leash without making eye contact and mouths (maybe bruises or scratches but no punctures) and is usually targeting your hand to try to get you to drop the leash. They might growl, bark and be pissed off but are still respectful in eye contact avoidance and no damage.

True HA IMO, is a dog that gives the hard stare and goes for the jugular; some might think this is ok but to me I don't see it as any more stable than a fear biter. But that is me who doesn't do bite work or PP so I might not have a true appreciation of the value in that.

And for what it is worth, I have yet to see any dog bite or snap no matter what its motives that does not signal its intent; even if it is just the stiffening of its body before the bite.

So after all that....I guess my answer is..... both?

Betty i use very little food in the beginning,i use verbal praise & physical praise( if they are not trying to eat me). i make it black and white. 1 good correction is worth more than a 1000 nags. you have to be careful when they are scared they will bite . once the battle is over in a couple sessions you can see the dog more confident they will make you a better trainer. I'm sure Connie deals with them every day w/the rescue.

No, not every day (shelter, not rescue), thank goodness! But yes, I have worked with fearful dogs.

Black and white is a good way to put it.

Ed has a lot about fear-biters (and in fact he too uses the old adage "1 meaningful correction is worth more than a 1000 nags").

http://leerburg.com/qafear.htm

Marker training is a great confidence builder. JMO!

And of course I don't correct a dog until I am a thousand percent sure that the dog understands the command (thoroughly proofed for venue and distraction).



PS
Betty, is there something going on that you want to start a thread about? From what I know so far about your dog, "fear-biter" is not a term I'd apply to him. It's too strong. Something new happening?

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

Marker training is a great confidence builder. JMO!

And of course I don't correct a dog until I am a thousand percent sure that the dog understands the command (thoroughly proofed for venue and distraction).

I'm also using a much different consistent approach than John has explained. It’s not like he hasn’t (as Ingrid puts it) seen Jesus, but this was only in the beginning stages, when I didn’t realize the magnitude of what I was dealing with, when I was caught somewhat off guard.

If there’s a “Jesus” meeting required these days, it’s my head against the wall because I know what this dog can handle at this point and what he needs more exposure to.

And I know it was a bit off topic, probably a really stupid question too (I’ve been known for a few of those) but can no one tell me if these decoys ever wear gloves. Do the dogs never go for the hands?

Connie… you ever tossed a helper a set of those protective “spanking gloves”?

To weave it into the topic a bit, not that a fear biter would be in these sports, but IME, hands seem to be the target of choice when they’re not going for the juggler.

Every decoy gets bit on the hand eventually, you do it long enough and it will happen. But, by the same token, it doesn't happen very often from what I've seen.

With the proper training, by the time a dog gets to be able to bite a decoy, he/she should know what/where to bite.