I hope Vancamp has finished posting because if Lou responds to any more of his posts Ed will have to upgrade his Harddrive space. LOL.

Well Vince, what I'm really trying to do is crash the system by getting into a discussion with some of the long winded'est people on the board. I think I'm gonna do it. I'm only missing Richard. . .

Here goes:

I WROTE: My opinion is also influenced by my own dislike of compulsive methods.

LOU WROTE: I don’t think that driven dogs can be trained to reliable levels with positive methods only, other than dogs doing work that’s really play, such as detector dogs. I’ve issued a challenge worth $1,000 to anyone who can find me a patrol dog that can pass my stakeout test (http://www.uwsp.edu/psych/dog/LA/castle1.htm) that has been trained totally with positive methods. The challenge has been seen by thousands of people and no one has ever taken me up on it.

Now I'm getting my feathers a little ruffled.
I didn't say that you don't use corrections in training. In fact the rest of that comment went on the talk about when you should use correction, i.e. after you understand when and how to do it. I think that everyone that has ever seriously trained a dog knows that you have to eventually use compulsion. I don't think it was very neighborly to take that comment "out of context". he, he, he <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> :rolleyes: <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

LOU WROTE: I think that if the exercises are broken down into their components that those components can be worked on one at a time. This means that one doesn’t train for a SchH trial, one trains for a deep bite, a bark in the blind, and following a track.

Is that how thats done? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I was just saying that there is more difficulty and room for error in these areas, than say, teaching Fido to play fetch and stay off the sofa.

OK, now that I have got that stuff of my chest, let me say that I know that the e-collar is a good training tool. I also know there is a place for it in all types of work. But again, I don't think that a novice trainer should be using one without first, having help. And second, some basic experience understanding when, why, and how to correct a dog. If you think that you can instruct a person to use it properly, I have no doubt that you are doing that, then that is fine. But, to say it is easy (correction-when,why,how) and that anybody can go get an e-collar and use it correctly, is wrong.

I think what ikor said, is what my problem is. I have seen idiots and assholes use them without knowing what the hell they are doing. So I am not sold on the idea, that it is a good idea, to say that they are easy to use correctly. I said earlier that giving a novice an e-collar is giving them a more effective tool to -F- up with. It is easier to push a button, so it requires less thought as to when and why you are doing it. Less training also. In my opinion that = more room for error. (at the dogs expense)

I guess the meat of my point is that I consider the level of experience necessary to use an e-collar, in training, is higher than what you do. We are in agreement with everything else.

I love the new Sport Series from Tri Tronics!!!

I have the Sport 50 and the concerns on here about it I can quickly put to rest.

1. "Not as heavy duty as the dogtra". Well folks since I am a clutz and have a tendency to drop stuff the holster that you can purchase seperatly is awsome. Great swivel on it and the padding protects against those occasional drops. Now I am sure if you launch it at a brick wall it might not hold up, but for those who are calm it should work fine.

2. "Less stimulation levels then the Dogtra" You can at least rotate the knob with your hand and feel it click. The dogtra has to many minor levels and it does not feel quite the same. Plus how many levels do you really need the dog to feel. Some feel Level 2 and Scream but when in drive level 2 is not felt so on to level 3 which works. These are adjustable for a reason and somtimes keeping things simple stupid when all your really trying to do is train your dog is better.

Quick question to those of you in the know. I wanted to attend a Lou Castle seminar in my area but it is only for SAR and Police. I'm in Schutzhund and have had a fair amount of experience with ecollars but wanted to broaden my knowledge base. Lou and Fred seeme to be the most active people in teaching ecollars, but they seem to have major disagreements on this board. WHY? All trainners are different but it seems they have lowered themselves to he said she said and your trainning methods suck. WHY?

If you all can recommend others with Seminars I would love to hear whom and why.

And back to the reason why I have replied to this message. The tritronics are the most reliable company out there hence go with the Sport Series.

David,the reason Lou differs with so many others about the use of Ecollars is his methods.
Lou uses the minimum possible level of stimulation to achieve results,others do not.
I have used Tritronics collars for some time and most of what I know,I stole from Lou and his methods do work without the dog becomming collar shy as often happens.In the past many trainers have had a dog up their arm using a choker,to date I have never seen a dog react against the handler with an Ecollar,Used Correctly!
Paul

 Quote:

Originally posted by VanCamp:

I didn't say that you don't use corrections in training. In fact the rest of that comment went on the talk about when you should use correction, i.e. after you understand when and how to do it. I think that everyone that has ever seriously trained a dog knows that you have to eventually use compulsion.

I can vouch for Mr. VanCamp here. He has recently dubbed himself "Captain Correction". LOL <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Ya, I prong the hell outa those damn dogs. How's that Chuck? Looks like I'm gonna have to start zapping the pee outa 'em too. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Just kidding, I don't need any hate mail from PETA or anybody else with bleeding hearts! It was just a JOKE. . .

DFrost wrote: I have one basic rule. I only correct a behavior the dog knows.

LC: Lots of people use the Ecollar for polishing already learned behavior. But if you’re prepared to guide the dog into the correct behavior, in effect showing him how to shut it off, and you’re using low level stimulation, you can use the Ecollar VERY effectively to teach new behaviors.

DFrost wrote: I've found that if the dog wears the dummy collar for a minimum of two weeks prior to any stimulation, the dog attenuates to that collar, like wearing a wedding band, you forget you have it on.

LC: Lots of people do this, Mike Lardy is one of them and he’s very successful in the gun dog world. Mike insists that dogs wear the dummy for at least 30 days before feeling a stimulation. I don’t do this. I’ve found some dogs know the difference between the dummy and the real collar. Most manufacturers used to supply a dummy with every purchase, but few do any more. When I start a dog I put the Ecollar on him and go training. I leave the collar on for the rest of the day, taking it off at night. Then I put it on first thing in the morning and leave it on all day for the next several months. The dog gets desensitized to it that way.

ikor wrote: As far as he was concerned, the thing had only two settings..."Wide Open" and "Off". He cranked it to "WFO", gave the "Out" command and when Fluffy refused to out, hit the switch. Fluffy assumed that this pain was coming from the dirty, no good, @#%%# he was biting at the time, so being a tough dog, HIS answer to the collar was to bite harder and become more frantic! Would it surprise you to learn that this trainer never did get this dog to out reliably?

LC: This is CLASSIC MISUSE. And what occurred is not unusual for a really tough dog that’s been trained that any pain he gets during a bite comes from the decoy. I’d have this dog outing in less than an hour!

ikor wrote: I once heard Donn Yarnall say that some of the scariest words you will ever hear on a training field are "Let's see what he'll do"!

LC: LOL. If you ever hear a trainer say this about your dog, it’s time to head for the car and find a new trainer.

VanCamp wrote: Now I'm getting my feathers a little ruffled.

LC: OK VanCamp, please unruffle those feathers. I meant no offense. Sorry to have ruffled them in the first place. But there are those out there who never use aversives. Of course they don’t train high drives dogs for any serious job to any degree of reliability.

VanCamp wrote: I don't think that a novice trainer should be using one without first, having help.

LC: Me too.

VanCamp wrote: I think what ikor said, is what my problem is. I have seen idiots and assholes use them without knowing what the hell they are doing.

LC: You’re in the same place as most people who have seen Ecollar misuse. You don’t like it. And since it’s probably a trainer who misused it you figure that a novice couldn’t possibly figure it out. I don’t blame people for this attitude. Where are you located? If I’m ever doing a seminar in your area, you’re invited to come watch free of charge. I want you to see this stuff. If you’re not amazed I’ll be amazed. In the next few months I’m doing seminars in MI, MD and WA. Any of them near you?

VanCamp wrote: I guess the meat of my point is that I consider the level of experience necessary to use an e-collar, in training, is higher than what you do. We are in agreement with everything else.

LC: I take it that the feathers are back on place now? LOL

David D wrote: I love the new Sport Series from Tri Tronics!!!

LC: This is a Ford v. Chevy talk. LOL.

2. "Less stimulation levels then the Dogtra" You can at least rotate the knob with your hand and feel it click. The Dogtra has to many minor levels and it does not feel quite the same.

LC: The Dogtra is meant to be used with both hands. One hand holds down the “continuous” button while the other dials the stimulation level up and down, finding the precise level that the dog needs. With the TT you have to get off the button change the level and get back on the button to change the level. The communication is not as clear.

David D wrote: Plus how many levels do you really need the dog to feel. Some feel Level 2 and Scream but when in drive level 2 is not felt so on to level 3 which works.

LC: Because the stimulation is continuous with the Dogtra it’s very clear to the dog. Instead of stopping and starting at a new, higher level the dog isn’t confused at all.

David D wrote: Quick question to those of you in the know. I wanted to attend a Lou Castle seminar in my area but it is only for SAR and Police. I'm in Schutzhund and have had a fair amount of experience with ecollars but wanted to broaden my knowledge base.

LC: Where is this seminar going on? I do seminars a couple of ways. It they’re for "LE only" then they’re restricted because we talk about tactical stuff that isn’t available to the general public. As a result of the confidentiality necessary, pet, sport and SAR folks aren’t invited. Next I do "SAR only" because they don’t like to mix in the biting dogs. And I do seminars where everyone is invited. Mostly they’re in the latter category. Of the three seminars that I mentioned, "all disciplines" are invited.

David D wrote: Lou and Fred seeme to be the most active people in teaching ecollars, but they seem to have major disagreements on this board. WHY?

LC: Fred uses methods that I consider to be abusive. Even without that, there’s some history behind our disagreements. If you’ve read them you know that we disagree at a very basic level. I think that’s important. Fred’s a salesman and a technician, not a dog trainer. He knows nothing of dog training concepts or theories. I know that his methods will adversely affect Police and SAR dogs two areas that I’m very involved in. When a SAR dog misses, people die. When a PSD misses, felons go home instead of to jail. He doesn’t like to hear that.

Yep, all the feathers are in place. Nice post. . .

I'll take you up on your offer to see your action. You've got mail. We will see about that. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I like GMC does that put me out of the running guys?

Originally posted by Lou Castle:
In the next few months I am doing seminars in MI, MD and WA. Lou, where can I find out about your seminar in MI?

Well thanks I think Lou but comparing between a Ford and a Chevy. The gentleman asked which collar people would recomend. Based on my opinion I recommended the Tritronics and gave my reasons why.

LC: The Dogtra is meant to be used with both hands. One hand holds down the “continuous” button while the other dials the stimulation level up and down

If you are starting a dog out on a collar how can you guide the dog into teaching to turn the collar off with both hands on the remote? This does not seem practicle.

LC: Where is this seminar going on?

In MD. The seminar is a SAR with Police invited. So it seems to me that bite dogs will be there. Plus I didn't want to bring my dog as he is just where I like him as far as trainning. 7 year old Sch III retired. I was just looking to broaden my knowledge on ecollars.