Then yes, absolutely go back and start a new foundation.

Katie; I wasn't trying to be dense last night. This is what I (and Steve and Bob) suspected all along. Even though A.J. had said his dog knew the command, it seemed like something was missing. My apologies if I offended you.

Hey AJ, you really didnt do his foundation work, his first 9mos with someone else did that. It could be that was so heavy handed that it created this and it shows with something he really values, the frisbee.

I know Katie's right, out is out. If he knows it, he should do it, but I think if a lot of force was used combined with bad timing and no reward for outing it, he may have learned to fight the corrections, thinking that giving it up means he doesnt get it back and your just gonna punish him more.

I think the reward, the immeadiate re-bite of the toy is what matters, whether you correct him or trade him, thats what ends up mattering, how quick you can reward him for the out so he can make that association.

 Quote: steve strom

Hey AJ, you really didnt do his foundation work, his first 9mos with someone else did that. It could be that was so heavy handed that it created this and it shows with something he really values, the frisbee.

I know Katie's right, out is out. If he knows it, he should do it, but I think if a lot of force was used combined with bad timing and no reward for outing it, he may have learned to fight the corrections, thinking that giving it up means he doesnt get it back and your just gonna punish him more.

I think the reward, the immeadiate re-bite of the toy is what matters, whether you correct him or trade him, thats what ends up mattering, how quick you can reward him for the out so he can make that association.

Big ditto from me.

Foundation work done using the system you mentioned -- IMHO, you won't go wrong starting over with anything, and I'd probably put away the e-collar for a long time. JMHO, though. (You may want to think about watching and learning a better e-collar system from Ed's DVD before you consider using it again. Again, JMO. )

The system used by the previous owner is deleted from your post because Ed doesn't even want the name on his board (that is, he agrees with you about it).

And back to Steve's post:

"I think the reward, the immeadiate re-bite of the toy is what matters, whether you correct him or trade him, thats what ends up mattering, how quick you can reward him for the out so he can make that association."

Let us know, OK, how that goes?

 Quote: steve strom

Hey AJ, you really didnt do his foundation work, his first 9mos with someone else did that. It could be that was so heavy handed that it created this and it shows with something he really values, the frisbee.

I know Katie's right, out is out. If he knows it, he should do it, but I think if a lot of force was used combined with bad timing and no reward for outing it, he may have learned to fight the corrections, thinking that giving it up means he doesnt get it back and your just gonna punish him more.

I think the reward, the immeadiate re-bite of the toy is what matters, whether you correct him or trade him, thats what ends up mattering, how quick you can reward him for the out so he can make that association.

I agree. I didn't do his foundation work. I'm working on that now though. And I don't like commenting on his inital training because I was not actually there to witness it. But I do know that we met Aragon when he was 6 months old (prior to any training) he was a happy and confident pup. When we got him at 9 months (after 3 months of training) he was a nervous & scared young dog who was mistrusting of women. He would perform the commands, but would do if with his head hung low, scared of what would happen. But with the marker training and lots of love he is coming back to that dog that we met at 6 months.

But, I was the person who actually taught him the drop it and out commands. Though he picked up the commands really fast so maybe I should spend some more time reinforcing the drop it command.

For the most part I have put up the e-collar. I don't do any training with it any more. The only time that he wears it anymore is if we are in a situation where he will be off leash and I want the extra insurance of being able to get his attention from a distance away. But it really doesn't get used much anymore because he is pretty good for me while off leash.

So I'm going to go to a two frisbee system and start working on reinforcing the drop it command and see if I can't improve the drop it command. Thanks!

Duane, you didn't offend me. I just have no reason to suspect someone didn't do a proper foundation when they mention nothing of it. You can suspect what you want, but I prefer not to give advice based on something I suspect rather than what the OP tells me. If he comes out later with something else, we can go from there. But if I were to have done a proper foundation and came asking for advice I'd be a little annoyed if everyone just assumed I had a bad foundation and told me to start over. JMO.

Got it. I wasn't suggesting he had a bad foundation... I just thought there was another option he hadn't tried yet.

I know you have some pretty tough dogs, but I frequently see dogs that are confused or that are soft getting popped. My medium-soft dog can handle a yelp-inducing correction (prong; don't ecollar)when she knows she's wrong, but will go into avoidance when she doesn't understand an exercise, even without a correction. Because of that, I tend to reserve corrections. I really think it's just a difference in styles (and maybe dogs' temperaments).

When I say I reserve corrections, that is behavior-specific; no mercy in leashwork, more forgiving in obstacles and retrieves, NO corrections in tracking and de-sensitization).

IMO, a proper correction teaches dogs to be harder. I use a mix of marking training and compulsion. All of my foundation is market training.

Many dogs go into avoidance when they don't understand. I was under the impression that this dog understood. I would not have advised corrections otherwise.

Good point. AJ's dog aside, some dogs have issues that make it tough, and it's not always the training (or foundation, if you will).
I adopted mine at 2.5 yrs. Although I'm improving as a handler, there are things about her (such as repressed prey drive and temperament) that I may always have to work around. Can't wait til I can handle a spankin' new little GSD alligator. I promise it'll be one hard lil' b*****d!

Wow, my iPhone really screwed up that last post. I'm assuming you know I meant markER training. Not marking or market training.

Anyway, I actually prefer a softer dog. I'm small and have a hard time physically correcting Danni hard enough for her to care. Conan is a lot softer but equally as thick skulled and opinionated. If you can take a 2.5 year old rescue and do well with her at IPO I think you are more than capable at raising a puppy.